Solomode Quests and Photon Drop Increase

[Cassie 9]

Let's stay on topic

 

[Ade]

Arguing about the nuances of a topic, and the implications thereof, IS on topic.

This discussion has gotten in-depth because we're arguing about the ideals of gaming, progression, opinions, expertise, and many other things related to the topic. As soon as we start censoring in-depth discussion, we've regressed back to Schtserv standards.

 

[Ryan]

I don't think discouraging people from voting at all is on topic in the least, regardless of how you frame it.

 

[anime]

This PD change is a really bad idea mmkay.
Who wants to pool gear to purchase OP event items and team point them to a "ServersSake" team
this isn't a shitpost i'm doin' it ok ok

 

[Ade]

I don't think discouraging people from voting at all is on topic in the least, regardless of how you frame it.

I did the best I could to give a valid example of when someone should and should not vote (the town hall meeting example). I am sorry if this caused offense. When looking at "real life" voting situations, I think most would agree that not voting is better than voting in an uninformed manner. The consequences of the vote on this server will have a much more lasting impact to those who choose to stay and keep playing, so I think it's a valid concern. I'm sorry you feel differently.

There's no way to bring up stuff like this without ticking someone off, but the discussion must be allowed to conclude naturally. Imagine if a moderator had censored Socrates from finishing his argument in Plato's Apology because it was causing parts of the crowd to become restless: We would be missing one of the greatest pieces of literature of all time. I appreciate that you've allowed the topic to continue. I think it's been very civil. We're not saying bad things about each other's moms, so we have that going for us.

I should also mention that, taking the time to defend an accusation of going "off topic" within the topic is "on topic." (Where else would one do it?) Anyway...

 

[Matt]

Alright Ade has been placed on time-out because Holy fuck.

 

[Lancen]

Dis 2 much reading. I just wanna play PSO fam. Idc.

 

[CTB]

Yeah, I don't want to read it all either.

I'm not really opposed to the changes as while this is the first time PSO has been allowed to have a legitimate economy, the population is also much smaller than the official BB servers were. JPBB's events also did way more to the economy in some cases (10x rates!)

but I don't play lately lol

 

[Nyte]

Changed to "Neither" from just "Quest". I feel like the quest change will make things too easy. I like this idea of a "never ending" game as well!

This is just my opinion as a mostly solo player. I've only traded maybe 3 times since 2015 so I can't offer any opinions on economy.

 

[Dman]

My 3cents. I voted for both. I see all sides but can't find any negatives about this. I mostly solo cause rl makes me. Lol People like me who solo alot will be blessed with more content. I really don't think it is easier to find items by yourself compared to a party.

I think of a pd increase like a raise at my work. Except I didn't save the money I just spent more and didn't have anything extra to show for it. I believe this won't change the economy but the lack of new people joining and staying will. If everyone has all the items that they want, what do you do with your extra limiters? You won't team point that. My point is everyone uses pds differently and I want more. Hahaha

 

[XiCwoodXi]

You Kno I guess I'm starting to change my mind a lil.
The one issue I have selling mags, is that mine are more for newer players, and they don't ever have the pds until they are higher level. So I guess if they were to get them faster I could make sales faster. Still don't like the fact it makes the PD a bit weaker, but what ever.

 

[Chronos Notashi]

Changed to "Neither" from just "Quest". I feel like the quest change will make things too easy. I like this idea of a "never ending" game as well!

This is just my opinion as a mostly solo player. I've only traded maybe 3 times since 2015 so I can't offer any opinions on economy.

Thought about it for a bit, and I think I'll follow suit and change my vote from "Both" to "Neither", because...

Well, let's think about it for a bit. Isn't this server supposed to be as "vanilla" as possible with certain QoL changes? Pretty sure neither adding solo versions of established multiplayer quests nor boosting PD drop rates (regardless how big or small the boost is) really count as "QoL changes" and may move the game a little too far away from "vanilla" for most people's taste. That is, of course, if we go with the perspective of one that wants to maintain vanilla status.

But even if we ignore that perspective, as a mostly-solo player, I feel we already have enough quests that can be comfortably solo'd, even in Normal mode with a bit of effort and knowledge (I can't really say for Challenge Mode since I haven't tried it (much less attempted to solo it), but that's a completely different mode that will be unaffected regardless), and adding more single-player versions of multiplayer quests (particularly the popular multiplayer quests) might give newer players the impression that multiplayer is either less desirable or completely dead in comparison. Also, just the idea of a PD drop rate increase is triggering some people's bad memories of Schtserv. Based on the fact that I've heard little good about Schtserv in my entire time as part of the PSO community, that alone says that messing with the PD flow is clearly a super-controversial method that's... to make an estimated guess... at least 68% likely to cause more harm than good (as is, afaik, the same with every proposed change that trigger those memories). And THAT'S the best-case scenario. So it would probably be a good idea if both options were to be put on the back burner for the time being, at least until the recent DAR changes and current Season blow over and we can more accurately determine the potential damage the proposed options may or may not cause.

 

[Zen]

and may move the game a little too far away from "vanilla" for most people's taste

Obviously not most as the majority of the playerbase agrees with both changes so far.
Also, this server isn't vanilla at all anymore; the only thing remaining vanilla more or less is the item pool.

and adding more single-player versions of multiplayer quests (particularly the popular multiplayer quests) might give newer players the impression that multiplayer is either less desirable or completely dead in comparison

That's not true. The vast majority of players are here for the multimode experience and the previously added quests in solomode didn't affect them at all. Soloing gets quickly boring for most people but more quests could allow them to play something rather than just log when no one is on. It'd also be beginner friendly as there is almost nobody playing outside of Ultimate (not speaking about Seasons).

More Photon Drops along the way would feel more rewarding when doing boring endless hunts, and I don't think we're speaking about injecting so much that the economy would turn into Schthack's.

 

[Rune]

Voted yes to both. Those 100s of zanba 30 hit, sof 30 hit, fs in general, 30 hit kunai, 30 hit shoren, and more being sold for like 5pd is pretty silly imo and I feel something like this would help fix this.

Fun bit of reading this topic was though I got to say.

 

[Prinny]

I voted for both although the Quest change is the one I want the most. I exclusively play solo so being able to run all the quests without getting my ass kicked every few minutes would be very helpful.

More PDs would be nice but I'm not overly bothered if this change happens. I rarely buy things as I prefer to hunt them myself but I do like to horde PDs. Makes me feel richer than I really am.

 

[Chronos Notashi]

Obviously not most as the majority of the playerbase agrees with both changes so far.
Also, this server isn't vanilla at all anymore; the only thing remaining vanilla more or less is the item pool.

Hence why I said "if we ignore that perspective". A lot of people don't care whether or not the server remains vanilla in any way, as long as they can get stuff without even trying. I only put that information there to cover the perspective of those who DO still care about whether or not the server maintains its status as the most "vanilla" server on the web. If no one cares about that reputation, then clearly the first part can be freely disregarded.

That's not true. The vast majority of players are here for the multimode experience and the previously added quests in solomode didn't affect them at all. Soloing gets quickly boring for most people but more quests could allow them to play something rather than just log when no one is on. It'd also be beginner friendly as there is almost nobody playing outside of Ultimate (not speaking about Seasons).

More Photon Drops along the way would feel more rewarding when doing boring endless hunts, and I don't think we're speaking about injecting so much that the economy would turn into Schthack's.

I put the one part in bold because that change wasn't AS significant as you think. True, we got a good number of multiplayer quests as solo quests. But a good portion of the popular quests (ex: TTF and RT in the case of EXP farming) were omitted; the original reason being to give solo players a chance to do certain quests solo with minimal loss of incentive to form teams for more valuable quests (no benefits from HBR for the "Kill All Enemies" quests and reduced luck bonuses in Solo means that solo players are stuck with 100% DAR and 100%-103% RDR outside of milestone/weekly/event bonuses). Furthermore, this was during a time when going Solo was the best method to farm for items if you didn't want to fight other players for them, since the PSO2 drop style still had the DAR penalties that could only be properly nullified by high combined HBR bonuses (didn't require a huge amount of dedication, but still; Some don't like having to do a grind within a grind just to offset a penalty). Now that the PSO2 style's DAR penalty is gone, there's not really much reason for Ultimate players to do solo unless they just can't find anyone to farm rares with. And adding TTF and RT to the list of quests would give less incentive to form a team to level up in V. Hard, as you can just spam it in SP with weaker enemies, weaker Dragon, and only a SLIGHT overall EXP rate decrease.

And if the idea is to try to make the game more "beginner friendly", then making One Person versions of all multiplayer quests isn't the way to do it (unless you also nerf enemy stats to the point where, for example, Single-player Seabed and East/West Towers aren't a pain even for a novice level 34 Hunter that's NOT twinked beyond all reason or skilled in the ways of expert trapping/freezing). From what I've heard, the biggest issue with non-Seasons progression to Ultimate is that newer players have difficulty finding players of their skill and gear level to progress with. Instead, they usually encounter Ultimate players (especially those using twinked characters on lower difficulties) that can single-handedly one-shot everything that's not a boss (either through sheer damage or Hit%+v502-enhanced Hell weapons) before Ultimate, with the newer players themselves being unable to do little more than "mark" enemies with one low-damage hit each for guaranteed EXP before said enemies are instantly vaporized. This means that if they don't find it fun to be carried all the way to Ultimate and can't find players of their skill/gear level to progress with, they have no choice BUT to solo everything in the game. And as you said, that tends to get boring after a while, which means those players will not only eventually be drained of enjoyment of Solo mode, but be drained of motivation to play in general due to not being able to properly enjoy the multiplayer aspect.

Believe me. I wish I could say that there were more people like me who are able to muster up the motivation to resort to primarily play solo to maintain a good rate of progression and enjoyment without being carried (I've become used it to after years of going solo in MMOs and Monster Hunter, especially since it's hard to match schedules with my brother for anything co-op). But that's not the case most of the time, and those that can't motivate themselves to endure the solitude of solo grinding either cave in and decide to sacrifice enjoyment for increased progression by being carried (which sometimes kills off their motivation anyway by the time they do reach Ultimate), or just outright quit the game/server and go elsewhere. Honestly, a new Season before the 2nd month (assuming Ephinea gets more after this one) or moving to a newly-released server would be more beginner friendly than making all quests available in Solo, because even veteran players will be forced to start completely fresh, and newer players can look for parties without having to worry about being carried/twinked to endgame and can actually experience the game the way it was meant to be experienced.



All of that out of the way, I'll move to the PD comment now. Honestly, I wouldn't have pointed out people's fear born from memories of Schtserv, if people here were confident that the increase would be minor (maybe, say, 1.1x-1.2x, 1.5x at most) and not have a heavy impact on the server's trade economy. But there's the assumption among players here that the overall PD drop rate will experience a 2x increase (or some other extreme), which can be pretty significant in the PD-trading market if people excessively farm for them. Yes, it wouldn't be Schtserv levels of inflation (since that was from constant, unrestricted duping), but it'd be a large inflation nonetheless. Possibly too large if more people start actively farming for them after the increase.

How large would a 2x increase be, exactly? Well, I kinda did the math, using Lileya's approximations with the current PD rate being 0.8% (1/125) on a tool roll, a tool roll for enemies being about 1/4 before DAR, and using an enemy with 100 DAR. As we know, that would normally be about a 1/500 chance on a 100 DAR enemy. But if we doubled the PD rate and made it 1.6%, that would increase the chance of getting a PD from a 100 DAR enemy to a 1/250 chance. If we looked at boxes where tools are guaranteed to drop, we get a 1/62.5 chance to get a PD (since as Lileya pointed out, boxes that are guaranteed to drop tools ignore two of the three factors used for enemies). In comparison, a 1.5x boost would instead give a 1/333 PD chance for 100 DAR enemies, and a 1/83 chance from tool drop-locked boxes. Still a jump, but not as big, and either way quests with multiple tool drop-locked boxes would become extremely powerful for PD farming.

 

[TaoChaos]

I like the quests being added to solo-mode for a few reasons:
1. They are fun and I like running them but end up being too weak or too strong
2. I don't always have time to wait for a group to form up
3. I can't always find people in the same level bracket to team up
4. If I do get a group together, sometimes I have to up and bail because of real-life stuff
5. I want easier options to get me to ultimate mode so I can play with everyone else

Part of the issue with the economy is people like me, I have 15 PDs or so, but any items I would want are out of my price range, and I can't spend them on cheaper items because then I'll never be able to afford the items I really want. I don't play enough to farm items that I can sell, and most of my cool stuff I give away to new players for free because that's how I got most of my really cool stuff. Maybe the problem with the economy is that there was never supposed to be one in the first place. The idea of SectionIDs was that people found different items and were supposed to trade. Making PDs into currency screws up that balance. Making more PDs just creates inflation.

 

[Zen]

A lot of people don't care whether or not the server remains vanilla in any way, as long as they can get stuff without even trying.

Quests won't change the vanilla feeling of the server. The most important things for that feeling are the item pool and the characters' stats. Moving more quests to solomode is a QOL improvement for many people who wish to play how the game was balanced for single player. One could argue that the purpose of Blue Burst is to run together and it's correct, but it's not going to affect how the people play the game anyway (solomode players will still solo, multimode players will still play with others in priority). It's about giving more options, not getting stuff "without even trying". You don't get stuff without trying unless you get lucky.

Also just to let you know, most people farming levels in Normal-Very Hard difficulty aren't playing TTF with others, especially if they are already geared RA/FO. MAS is a much faster and conveniant way to level these classes. So yeah, you can talk about motivation but those quitting before even reaching level 80 probably wouldn't have stayed much longer seeing the gap between Very Hard and Ultimate difficulty. I'm not claiming that it'll fix this issue, but it's not going to hurt as people will still do whatever is the most optimal way to level.

As we know, that would normally be about a 1/500 chance on a 100 DAR enemy.

I remember the rate beeing more like 1/750 on a 100 DAR ennemy. Someone with more knowledge has to correct me on this, though. There's only a minority of boxes/ennemies with 100 DAR, and HBR boosts don't apply in solomode. So even a 2X rate increase wouldn't be that much, you would only barely notice it during your runs. The economy would take some time to adapt, the prices aren't going to explode right away and it shall be healthier in the long run where stuff actually has value.

EDIT: I heard that the Photon Drop rate might even be between 1/1000 and 1/2000. I still have no clue whether it's correct or not, but I feel like it's much closer to the reality than 1/500.

 

[Aleron Ives]

Maybe the problem with the economy is that there was never supposed to be one in the first place. The idea of SectionIDs was that people found different items and were supposed to trade. Making PDs into currency screws up that balance.

I don't think there's anything wrong with exchanging Photon Drops for other items; the problem is that Photon Drops have no value outside of Paganini, as he's the only place you can spend them. Unless you want an S-Rank special, Black King Bar, Magical Piece, Snow Queen, or better weapon percentages, Photon Drops probably have no value to you except as something you can give to some other player in exchange for something you do want. ...unless you really want that Nei's Claw, in which case more power to you?

The list of things Paganini can give you is pretty short compared to the number of things you're likely to want over the course of raising your character, so Photon Drops don't work all that well as a currency when you can't use them to buy most of the goods you're looking for.

 

[StevieWonderDownUnder]

Someone with more knowledge has to correct me on this, though. There's only a minority of boxes/ennemies with 100DAR, and HBR boosts don't apply in solomode.

If PSOworld is correct (big IF), then there are almost no 100 DAR enemies. In fact, most of the common enemies, Bartle, Barble, Tollaw, Vulmer,..., Dimenian,etc. have around 30 DAR.

So, yeah the effects on a 100 DAR enemy are very bad for demonstrating the effects of a buff to PD rate.

Unfortunately, the ephinea drop chart no longer has the DAR info on it.