When is offering help/advice warranted versus toxic?

[Cutty Mink]

Legitimate question. I've seen players newer to PSO get incredibly defensive/angry when others try to offer help in a friendly/innocuous manner. For example, someone letting another know the item they're selling not likely being worth much (or anything) and getting met with angry retorts and sassy remarks. I also saw someone politely explain damage canceling to a FO only to get met with an angry rant regarding how they play FO to cast techs and they will play however they damn please. I've also seen new players get defensive over people trying to suggest using ice traps, SNS for demons, etc.

I then see some of these new players using these situations in support of claims that toxicity is rampant.

I'm not asking this to be sarcastic; I'm not trying to start a flame war or push some kind of hidden agenda. Should we just never offer unsolicited advice? Should we never attempt to educate or explain facets of gameplay? Maybe we should only offer advice if they ask?

I legitimately want to make sure I'm not violating some unspoken rule of conduct. I will absolutely respect what the general community standard on this is, so I want to make sure I'm not being an ass by saying "Hey, you should use zalure and not rafoie spam the whole run regardless of what enemies are up," etc, etc.

I think it goes without saying that no one should force advice onto someone after they made it clear "Hey, I don't want that advice, so stop it," but it seems like new players might get upset because it's multiple different people offering the same advice. So, while one person might know not to give it, they will play with a new party and someone they never interacted with will chime in with the same helpful info.

Thanks for reading! I will say once more that this isn't some hidden attempt to disparage and trash new players. There are plenty of new players who are open to advice and I am sure there are plenty of new players who encounter legitimately toxic veterans as well.

 

[CTB]

If you want to save yourself a headache: don't offer unsolicited advice if you aren't friends.

You might find new friends if you're willing to put up with the headaches. Some thick skin will be required though as this is PSO and someone you're speaking to probably has an ego. Furthermore - there isn't really anything wrong with giving advice, but it can toe the line with telling people how to play and that is unwelcome. For better or worse.

 

[Cutty Mink]

If you want to save yourself a headache: don't offer unsolicited advice if you aren't friends.

You might find new friends if you're willing to put up with the headaches. Some thick skin will be required though as this is PSO and someone you're speaking to probably has an ego. Furthermore - there isn't really anything wrong with giving advice, but it can toe the line with telling people how to play and that is unwelcome. For better or worse.

Thank you! Makes sense to me.

 

[RazakelKairo]

I tend to just focus on my own play, be it in a team of newer players or vets. I leave it up to the player if they want to learn, otherwise I'll just do my own thing. As a result I haven't found a single person who's had a problem with that so far. Coincidentally, I've also seen a lot of people improve, purely on their own merits.

I think the message is pretty clear. No matter the reason they simply don't want the advice, and especially because its advice labored in text it can be somewhat devastating.

I have my pet peeves with the community for sure, but overall Ephinea isn't even close to being as bad as the threads can make it out to be.

 

[Spuz]

With communication through text, there are always going to be some issues. It is lacking so much translation with context that people easily construe intent incorrectly. I tend not to offer tips, help or advice unless I either know the person or they are clearly interested in so (asking questions etc). This is one reason I also over-explain things, to ensure my intent is communicated as best as possible and all knowledge is passed etc.

At the end of the day people who want to learn and better themselves in the game will do so, and those that don't care; won't. Just gotta play with like-minded people regardless of where you fall in those categories and find your way to enjoy the game.

 

[cameron-]

you can ask if it’s ok to offer advice

 

[SirLagsAlot]

All games and the internet in general is toxic. Sure PSO can be toxic from time to time but usually it just boils down to a difference in opinions. If someone is being truly deeply toxic on the internet, its a complete “Just close the laptop bro” type of situation. But i would wager PSO ephinea is probably like 10x less toxic than any other game. Anyone remember Xbox Live lobbies? League of legend lobbies? At a certain point you become so jaded to it that it just becomes funny, atleast it did for me. Anonymity on the internet leads to people acting in all sorts of whacky ways that would normally never be acceptable IRL.

Someone mentioned unwarranted advice. Basically NOBODY appreciates it lol. So its commonplace to see someone acting defensively when offering it. But thats more of a life thing and less of a PSO thing.

PSO is afterall a team PvE kind of game, so it can hurt to have your team suffer due to bad choices being made by other players but its also a game that is ZZZ easy af and it can always be played around (for the most part). Like sure, if you were a HardCore player (rip) and you kept getting griefed on that one part of Falz then yeah the other player is literally risking your entire account to just troll you and thats whack and you should probably BL them. But with the removal of HC the only thing you can ever be risking is your time and if you find your match is taking THAT long (even though even with even the most amount of DMC i could only see this adding a couple mins tops to a run if you play around it correctly) then you can factor how much time is “lost” that you might be better off just leaving the game and starting a new one lol.

Its just a 4 player game. Eventually you can probably find a solid group that is on at a similar time as you. People play alot more pubs because of the event but usually shits pretty RES’d up. I personally love playing public matches because i get to play with and meet more people and make more friends and ive literally never personally felt i was being griefed cause of some DMC or whatever.

 

[Rune]

I often sell stuff on the side when in random games and with me offering a basic fs, sn, or so for a pd I usually am playing with the newbie and give random tips and advice of various degrees of usefulness such as what stuff like sns is.

Usually don't have any issues. Not sure how many people I actually help though.

 

[Argajag]

Personally I start offering more advice after playing a round or two with the same people - I find people warm up to the idea of being told what is good or effective if you play with them for a while first.

 

[SirLagsAlot]

I often sell stuff on the side when in random games and with me offering a basic fs, sn, or so for a pd I usually am playing with the newbie and give random tips and advice of various degrees of usefulness such as what stuff like sns is.

Usually don't have any issues. Not sure how many people I actually help though.

On the topic of new players i feel like its important for people to understand about 99% of players are just using PSO as a nostalgia trip and likely wont be sticking around for years and years, and because of this they may never be interested or devote enough time overall to ever get to the sweatier side of things.

im certain you have helped people bro and made them better at the game even if its just a tiny tip. What you are really doing, when offering advice is just being kind. The whole point of the other thread was highlighting when the advice turns to “Bro just GTFO this lobby you are ruining our game!” Which is indeed lame and nobody likes being talked to like that lol

 

[Talisien]

Personally, I only offer advice if I know for sure I have something significant to offer. Min/maxing play is one thing, and if that's the level of advice I generally don't bother; things like FO's damage-cancelling and generally hurting the play of the party as a whole... Then I'll say something.

In either case, though, if I see someone playing in a way where I feel the urge to say something, first I'll toss off a quick, "Hey <name>, would you like a few tips to make playing <character> easier?" If they want to learn, cool, I'll share what I know.

If they aren't interested... Well, it's easier by far for me to just move to another room than fight them on it; why waste my time? Either they learn to like constantly playing with people just once or twice, or they wise up and start learning the game- be it with the advice of veterans or the hard way- and then can get people to routinely party up with them.

 

[Dashie IOW]

I only really offer advice when I'm 100% sure they are new and it's just some little basic tips and tricks. Like when your frozen, to move left and right to break out faster. And damage trap slime spawns for easy kills ect. And I normally just say "hey, just a tip you can do X to achieve Y" :3

 

[DiZzy]

I'd say in a select few situations it's warranted to drop a suggestion but only if it's so detrimental to gameplay you can't progress. Example: tech spam on del depths as it just throws them into a loop of not being targetable. I find advice best left to forum/discord/after game discussion.

If playing random games just go in with the rule of expect and accept everything. It's part of the charm of it. Some games are gonna be smooth and you can do your routine but others will keep you on your toes and have you using strats you normally wouldn't like being a guardian angel with crowd control across the room so your teammates aren't eating dirt every other spawn. Keeps the game fresh and fun with the right mindset going into it.

 

[Matt]

One of the main issues is that a lot of advice comes off as "you are playing wrong, you should do it right like me", but experimentation and discovery is a huge part of games like this, and some people just like playing in a certain way even if it might not be efficient - for example playing a pure crowd control ranger, pure support force, preferring to focus on certain weapons or only using melee as a hunter, and so on. Are they inefficient and could people be doing more? Yes, but people have their own likes, dislikes and favourites in these sorts of games.

Case in point, look at how you are wording this:

Should we just never offer unsolicited advice? Should we never attempt to educate or explain facets of gameplay? Maybe we should only offer advice if they ask?

This bigs you up as the pure angel who is just trying to offer advice to the poor newbies who are stupid and ignorant.

Is this what you intended? Probably not, but it doesn't matter what your intentions are, what matters is how you are perceived.

The correct play is let people discover things themselves, and offer advice when they ask how to do certain things better. Explaining why someone is being detrimental is fine, as nobody likes to actively be detrimental, but nobody likes to be told they're wrong and have the aspect of discovery and improveming themselves potentially "ruined".

Also, giving advice and pushing people towards good items lowers the value of off-meta items. Remember that.

 

[Cutty Mink]

One of the main issues is that a lot of advice comes off as "you are playing wrong, you should do it right like me", but experimentation and discovery is a huge part of games like this, and some people just like playing in a certain way even if it might not be efficient - for example playing a pure crowd control ranger, pure support force, preferring to focus on certain weapons or only using melee as a hunter, and so on. Are they inefficient and could people be doing more? Yes, but people have their own likes, dislikes and favourites in these sorts of games.

Case in point, look at how you are wording this:



This bigs you up as the pure angel who is just trying to offer advice to the poor newbies who are stupid and ignorant.

Is this what you intended? Probably not, but it doesn't matter what your intentions are, what matters is how you are perceived.

The correct play is let people discover things themselves, and offer advice when they ask how to do certain things better. Explaining why someone is being detrimental is fine, as nobody likes to actively be detrimental, but nobody likes to be told they're wrong and have the aspect of discovery and improveming themselves potentially "ruined".

Also, giving advice and pushing people towards good items lowers the value of off-meta items. Remember that.

I appreciate your honest feedback, Matt. I think I fully understand the big picture now. Thank you for taking the time to respond; I can see exactly what you mean here and I know better how to handle my interactions thanks to the assistance of this thread.

The point about perception being key is a good one. I see now that the line between toxic and helpful is very thin and should be tread with care. Ultimately, many are playing on Ephinea to re-live nostalgia and just want a warm, welcoming environment where it's okay to play the way they enjoy.

 

[Cutty Mink]

Also, I really appreciate the feedback of this thread in general. I am now confident I can properly interact with anyone; new players or otherwise. Thanks to those who helped educate.

I can better see where my attitude and thought process might have been mis-aligned.

 

[Matt]

To try and drive the point a little further, let's talk about one of the most divisive weapons amongst newer and older players: Spread Needle.

When you're new, and don't know a lot about the inner workings of the game, Spread Needle seems to be one of the strongest and coolest weapons. It has relatively decent ATP, it attacks very quickly, can stunlock enemies and makes the game a breeze. Most importantly though: It is fun to use (and don't pretend that you never enjoyed using Spread Needle when you got your hands on it for the first time).

The above point is reflected amongst many, many older players who never came back to PSOBB after its "live service" - Spread Needle is considered to be the most broken weapon in the game.

The thing is though, players who have played for a long time recently know it's not that great, due to lack of range, lack of power compared to something like sacrificial weapons (shots, slicers), and ease of being able to cause noticeable* damage cancel against your party members. * Obviously everything damage cancels, but it's a lot more noticeable when something that does half your damage cancels your damage, instead of something doing the same damage.

And so, people who get Spread Needle for the first time absolutely fucking love using this thing. It's a fun weapon, it helps you clear content you may have had trouble with before, and you feel you've been progressing nicely and starting to get better at the game.

You then join a game, and some "good player" goes on at you about how you shouldn't be using Spread Needle, or talks about how Spread Needle is a bad weapon because it just isn't as good as sacrificial arms and you're just ruining the party's performance. But hold on a second, what you've been doing has been pretty effective and enjoyable, especially compared to before, so what is this person's problem? It just comes off entirely as elitist min/max speak, even if it might be well intentioned, because the advice is basically boiling down to one thing: What you are doing is wrong, and what they are advising is right, even if you're having fun.

You may be well intentioned, but what you're doing is stunting peoples' natural growth and progression, and essentially telling them that if you're not doing X, you're basically not playing right. It might be well-intended advice, but this is not how it is perceived, and the hard truth is also this: Not everyone cares about being efficient and just wants to use what they find fun.

 

[Cutty Mink]

To try and drive the point a little further, let's talk about one of the most divisive weapons amongst newer and older players: Spread Needle.

When you're new, and don't know a lot about the inner workings of the game, Spread Needle seems to be one of the strongest and coolest weapons. It has relatively decent ATP, it attacks very quickly, can stunlock enemies and makes the game a breeze. Most importantly though: It is fun to use (and don't pretend that you never enjoyed using Spread Needle when you got your hands on it for the first time).

The above point is reflected amongst many, many older players who never came back to PSOBB after its "live service" - Spread Needle is considered to be the most broken weapon in the game.

The thing is though, players who have played for a long time recently know it's not that great, due to lack of range, lack of power compared to something like sacrificial weapons (shots, slicers), and ease of being able to cause noticeable* damage cancel against your party members. * Obviously everything damage cancels, but it's a lot more noticeable when something that does half your damage cancels your damage, instead of something doing the same damage.

And so, people who get Spread Needle for the first time absolutely fucking love using this thing. It's a fun weapon, it helps you clear content you may have had trouble with before, and you feel you've been progressing nicely and starting to get better at the game.

You then join a game, and some "good player" goes on at you about how you shouldn't be using Spread Needle, or talks about how Spread Needle is a bad weapon because it just isn't as good as sacrificial arms and you're just ruining the party's performance. But hold on a second, what you've been doing has been pretty effective and enjoyable, especially compared to before, so what is this person's problem? It just comes off entirely as elitist min/max speak, even if it might be well intentioned, because the advice is basically boiling down to one thing: What you are doing is wrong, and what they are advising is right, even if you're having fun.

You may be well intentioned, but what you're doing is stunting peoples' natural growth and progression, and essentially telling them that if you're not doing X, you're basically not playing right. It might be well-intended advice, but this is not how it is perceived, and the hard truth is also this: Not everyone cares about being efficient and just wants to use what they find fun.

In a scenario like this, could phrasing help? Let's say you see someone needling in multiple games. Would you consider it toxic to say:

"Hey! The Spread Needle is a fun and awesome weapon, right? You might also have a lot of fun trying out a charge arms with hit if you like to see big numbers! I hope you're having fun!"

(For what it's worth, I give out 50 hit charge arms, vulcans, etc... For free, whenever possible)

 

[Harborer of Hope]

Mew referrs to these players as "PROUD WOLF Types~!". Can't tell you HOW many times she's been politely KICKED out of a room! But, When mew promises to "keep her tiny paws in her pockets"...they tend to warm up to her and take any 'advice' she can offer while escorting them and answering questions~! <3! You're ALWAYS gonna get players who are defensive and hardcore 'BY MY HAND ALONE!!" Kinda ppl! Mew shows them all the LOVE none the less! <3!

 

[Raine]

Some people tend to be more sensitive about stuff than others. Personally, as long as you're not a total dick please,. speak up and tell me if I'm going something wrong. I don't wanna be the cause of wasted time, I wanna blow through these Boomas and rack up the sweet loot and EXP in an efficient manner too.