When is offering help/advice warranted versus toxic?

[Toujours]

I give the kind of advice that I would like to receive in their position and most people seem to take it well

 

[Mome Chomsky]

I don't think it's ever 'toxic' unless you're giving bad advice and being really adamant that it's good advice. Giving advice to people who don't ask for it probably isn't that helpful either though.

 

[SirLagsAlot]

I don't think it's ever 'toxic' unless you're giving bad advice and being really adamant that it's good advice. Giving advice to people who don't ask for it probably isn't that helpful either though.

Ya but the point of the thread (atleast this one kind of being a comment on the last one is what i mean) is referencing an instance where players are asked to leave because of a class they are playing.

it was never about general advice like “Hey you should spam SNS combo on SoF more lol”. The advice in this instance was “yo GTFO u r a bad class we already hv a FO etc…”. Thats up to you and any other players disreption whether or not that is “toxic” but its certainly not fun to be asked to leave just for playing a certain class when its aruguable whether or not its gonna really impact the party at all negatively. I didnt realize every single pub match was RTA gang

 

[DiZzy]

it was never about general advice like “Hey you should spam SNS combo on SoF more lol”. The advice in this instance was “yo GTFO u r a bad class we already hv a FO etc…”. Thats up to you and any other players disreption whether or not that is “toxic” but its certainly not fun to be asked to leave just for playing a certain class when its aruguable whether or not its gonna really impact the party at all negatively. I didnt realize every single pub match was RTA gang

This thread is about giving general advice though? 2FO was already discussed in another thread but to add to this if everyone is allowed to play how they want then all playstyles "casual" or "optimal" are valid. Most people on this server don't give a fuck about party composition in pubs and the 99% of the ones that do are nice about it.

Discussion of optimal gameplay should always be encouraged and being honest here, the skill floor on this game is very low (skill ceiling can be high but that only matters in TA which is done in closed groups anyways) to hit a level where you can run quests fast as it mainly relies on spawn memorization, a bit of weapon knowledge and the rest coming from weapon sphereing. There is no such thing as sweating in this game it's piss ass easy to reach that level you see "good players" at and only requires a bit of reading/asking questions on the players part to get you on that path.

TLDR; All styles of gameplay in public games should be welcome just be nice to each other and the ones getting mad are 100% not skilled enough at the game to be complaining about others gameplay and should be blacklisted.

 

[LeapMaD]

Bwahahah this thread really for me.
Im NEW in PSO really NEW.
Play Ephinea few years ago for lvl 15 and drop it.


And return now.

SO actually NEW.

Anr really 1 tning u really dont understand REAL NEWBIES who never PSO before it.

defensive/angry when others try to offer help in a friendly/innocuous manner

Its depends how exactly do you want to help
EXAMPLE
IM speaks about real NEWBIES.
Im lvl 1 i play the game never pso and join to party lvl 150+.

I dont know what is pso and smth like that he just run fast like flash and kill all my mobes.
Its GENERALLY its not a HELP fast run for 99% newbies r not interested.

Y fast kills fast lvl - but its NEW PLAYER in PSO never play.

U play instead of him. Before he NEW it scare him in 99% time.

SO remember for real newbie fast runs not interested, quests not interested, item reader not interested.
Y im seriously new player dont KNOW NOTHING until he understands the game by half he interesting PICK UP all gear and slow running.

how they play FO to cast techs

LOL. Another THING in 99% he do what he wanna DO.
USE useless weapons techa and etc.
He wanna do it he do.

ITs not a cyber sport game all u PROS so strange in casual game.

stupidity to say what is right or wrong in casual game.

99% he do right thing when he become lvl 120+ but before it he do what he wanna do.
If he have question its right or no? then u can say.
Before it if u say for neqbie u play wrong in casula game 50% people be toxic with u.

ANd YES its generally Maybe we should only offer advice if they ask? YES YES and YES.

Remember its casual game and don't argue with me about it its FACT.
In casual game i do what i wanna do before i ask it.

Y u can try say newbie about item reader - and he start use it on lvl 100+- but u say it on lvl 2 lol.

U try carry fast lvl newbie but real newbie do 1-2 run with u and go SOLO casue its not interesting.

AS i say you look with your eyes old player.

Real newbie scares fast lvl dont use reader casue he dont need it before he dont undersatnd it by heself

Im done TY

 

[LeapMaD]

that you might be better off just leaving the game and starting a new one lol.

OMG for real PSO community is white and fluffy.
THe best community where i meet in onlime games.

i think its because OLD GAME.

Because before it i play HOTS in professional level and LOL every game its nerves.

PSO is so relaxing and i like it.

BUT OMG leave the game and start NEW because u think its too SLOW.
OMG

the only type of player that annoys me.
I go public game we all dont know each other and start TOWER MAE.
SO we clean 2f and our FO just leave the game cause its SLOW.
OMG we do it without him for 15 minutes next party we do it as 4 for 10 minutes.
NExt party all lvl 180+ and this FO who play 1st run only me lvl 120.
WE do it for 10 minutes too LOL.

8-12 minutes with all randoms every time we do TOWER MAE .

SO reason to run away after 2F?
THis type of players FREAKS

U go RANDOM party players wanna super fast u see lvls so leave party before quest start.

Wanna super super fast u see lvls u can ask qhat gear we have or better make u OWN list of players and play with them dont go RANDOM party.

If u join and quest is on play for END dont be a freak.

MAE r not LONG every arty do it for 10 minutes depends of quest so u do it for 10 minutes or u do it with slow party for 11 minutes.

WOW u WASTE U TIME its not 10 minutes its 11.

WE clean half quest its will be for 11 minutes not 10 HMMM better for LEAVE and start NEW.

im dont understand this.

 

[Matt]

Are you alright?

Your points are certainly valid but um... nice prose.

Of course though, your post does touch upon an important point: When players are new, they don't really want advice on how to go fast or necessarily what to use for optimal gameplay, they just like to discover things, and will ask for advice when they feel they're struggling and don't know what to do.

Advice is best given when asked, and that's all there is to it really.

 

[pierrot]

I've also seen new players get defensive over people trying to suggest using ice traps

I'm fairly new to Ephinea, after basically not having played PSO since the Dreamcast servers went down, and have always played HUcast. Not saying I'm a great HUcast, but this particular bit of advice triggers me a little bit because every time I've noticed it, I have been using freeze traps. A number of times I wasn't the only Cast in the group, and it wasn't until a particularly sideways leaning Seabed MAE that I realized traps can be refilled at the medical center, but I've also been led to believe that it's not always ideal to just spam freeze traps. Reason being: I was in a Tower MAE with another HUcast, and I think a FO and squishy RA of some form. The other HUcast was throwing down most of the traps (I don't have spawns perfectly memorized, so I'm usually slow on them anyway). On the last group of Delbiters before the top floor, the other HUcast froze them with freeze traps, and the FO threw up an angry symbol art. I'm not really sure if it was about the freeze trap or something else, but I know it at least had something to do with the Delbiters, because when we got to the group of Delbiters on the top floor and the other HUcast freeze trapped them again, the FO used the same SA again, and lobbied out along with the RA. Still pretty confused about that interaction.

Pretty much every remotely unpleasant experience I've had on Ephinea so far has been in CCA, Seabed, or Tower, though, and I've been slowly coming to the realization that it's most likely because EP2 is unadulterated horse shit, and an unmitigated disaster of a mistake.

One other thing I guess I'll mention from a new player perspective, is that it feels like the Ephinea playerbase takes the lingo for granted. By that I mean, there's a lot of lingo that gets thrown around as if it's just understood, or that the expectations are that even people new to the game or returning after a long period of not playing PSO should be able to understand it. There could have been more cases of people asking for freeze traps than I really understood, because the first time I realized someone was upset about freeze traps, I had to spend a couple minutes to have it click that the person just throwing out "FT" in the chat was shorthanding "Freeze Traps." Similarly, what the hell is a TTF, or a MAE? It wasn't initially clear to me that they indicated quest types. So imagine my surprise - after realizing that TTF and MAE were both acronyms for quests - when I got shooed out of a room labeled "RES." 'Hmm, I wonder what sort of efficient quest "RES" is?' I thought. I've seen other newer players fall into this trap as well, and it's not a great experience to feel like you've gotten on the wrong side of a turf war when joining an open room. I understand the convenience of the tag, though. It's more maybe a suggestion for having a list of common acronyms, contractions, etc for newbies to reference. Something that mentions for instance that, hey, "SNS" probably indicates Special-Normal-Special combo, "sd" is usually short for "Shifta/Deband," or that there are a number of desirable rares with common acronyms of....

Apologies for a first post that might not display an adequate amount of gratitude. I'm appreciative of this relatively stock PSOBB experience being maintained for others to enjoy. Just thought I would use this opportunity to voice a few frustrations that were weighing on me.

 

[Derfy]

To try and drive the point a little further, let's talk about one of the most divisive weapons amongst newer and older players: Spread Needle.

When you're new, and don't know a lot about the inner workings of the game, Spread Needle seems to be one of the strongest and coolest weapons. It has relatively decent ATP, it attacks very quickly, can stunlock enemies and makes the game a breeze. Most importantly though: It is fun to use (and don't pretend that you never enjoyed using Spread Needle when you got your hands on it for the first time).

The above point is reflected amongst many, many older players who never came back to PSOBB after its "live service" - Spread Needle is considered to be the most broken weapon in the game.

The thing is though, players who have played for a long time recently know it's not that great, due to lack of range, lack of power compared to something like sacrificial weapons (shots, slicers), and ease of being able to cause noticeable* damage cancel against your party members. * Obviously everything damage cancels, but it's a lot more noticeable when something that does half your damage cancels your damage, instead of something doing the same damage.

And so, people who get Spread Needle for the first time absolutely fucking love using this thing. It's a fun weapon, it helps you clear content you may have had trouble with before, and you feel you've been progressing nicely and starting to get better at the game.

You then join a game, and some "good player" goes on at you about how you shouldn't be using Spread Needle, or talks about how Spread Needle is a bad weapon because it just isn't as good as sacrificial arms and you're just ruining the party's performance. But hold on a second, what you've been doing has been pretty effective and enjoyable, especially compared to before, so what is this person's problem? It just comes off entirely as elitist min/max speak, even if it might be well intentioned, because the advice is basically boiling down to one thing: What you are doing is wrong, and what they are advising is right, even if you're having fun.

You may be well intentioned, but what you're doing is stunting peoples' natural growth and progression, and essentially telling them that if you're not doing X, you're basically not playing right. It might be well-intended advice, but this is not how it is perceived, and the hard truth is also this: Not everyone cares about being efficient and just wants to use what they find fun.

I wanted to mention something specific and then I got to this post by Matt and its about the same weapon I was gonna mention.

So a few days ago I got in a group and there was no cast or CC. So I specifically said Im gonna use my SN, cause its all i had on my ranger, and CC. I tried switching to vulc after id stun the wave in front but by then the other two rangers had burned everything down with Baranz. So i basically just did CC with SN the whole run and would just para the few in front and let them burn the rest lol. It was one of the fastest mae runs ive been in. I always try to make sure theres a CC because it slows you down if everyone keeps getting interrupted constantly. Unfortunately in PSO you have to make sure your not over attacking when you do it. So there can be a time and a place for something and we dont want to assume its not gonna work just because someone is using the wrong weapon or something.

That being said, even though i played on and off for 20 years, it was mostly solo and thank god there have been a few people that have taken the time to nicely help me learn to play better. Since coming here I have learned to play cast way better, play Fo in multi, and lots more. I still have so much to learn, like better wave preparation and such. I appreciate when people help me but at the same time its also nice when people let you figure it out.

A few weeks ago I tried using DP in a Ult desert run... ya lets just say it was one of the slowest ive been in. It works great if theres 3+ RAs doing it or if your solo. if not it sucks. Sometimes until you try it yourself its hard to realize how bad something is lol.

Anyway I wanted to say good job to the community for all these posts I see many brilliant ones that give very good advice. A few that I think are really good are doing several runs with or becoming friends with someone before giving advice, unless they ask. And another I saw was to play with like minded people. If your playing in randoms you gotta deal with what you get, flipping out and being toxic will not help, and usually only makes you look stupid. I have see people so worked up that they RQ in the first room of a run. Please before you have a heart attack or give one to others go join a private game with your friends.

Anyway great job guys! I look forward to reading many more brilliant post from a great community!

 

[Spuz]

I'm fairly new to Ephinea, after basically not having played PSO since the Dreamcast servers went down, and have always played HUcast. Not saying I'm a great HUcast, but this particular bit of advice triggers me a little bit because every time I've noticed it, I have been using freeze traps. A number of times I wasn't the only Cast in the group, and it wasn't until a particularly sideways leaning Seabed MAE that I realized traps can be refilled at the medical center, but I've also been led to believe that it's not always ideal to just spam freeze traps. Reason being: I was in a Tower MAE with another HUcast, and I think a FO and squishy RA of some form. The other HUcast was throwing down most of the traps (I don't have spawns perfectly memorized, so I'm usually slow on them anyway). On the last group of Delbiters before the top floor, the other HUcast froze them with freeze traps, and the FO threw up an angry symbol art. I'm not really sure if it was about the freeze trap or something else, but I know it at least had something to do with the Delbiters, because when we got to the group of Delbiters on the top floor and the other HUcast freeze trapped them again, the FO used the same SA again, and lobbied out along with the RA. Still pretty confused about that interaction.

Pretty much every remotely unpleasant experience I've had on Ephinea so far has been in CCA, Seabed, or Tower, though, and I've been slowly coming to the realization that it's most likely because EP2 is unadulterated horse shit, and an unmitigated disaster of a mistake.

One other thing I guess I'll mention from a new player perspective, is that it feels like the Ephinea playerbase takes the lingo for granted. By that I mean, there's a lot of lingo that gets thrown around as if it's just understood, or that the expectations are that even people new to the game or returning after a long period of not playing PSO should be able to understand it. There could have been more cases of people asking for freeze traps than I really understood, because the first time I realized someone was upset about freeze traps, I had to spend a couple minutes to have it click that the person just throwing out "FT" in the chat was shorthanding "Freeze Traps." Similarly, what the hell is a TTF, or a MAE? It wasn't initially clear to me that they indicated quest types. So imagine my surprise - after realizing that TTF and MAE were both acronyms for quests - when I got shooed out of a room labeled "RES." 'Hmm, I wonder what sort of efficient quest "RES" is?' I thought. I've seen other newer players fall into this trap as well, and it's not a great experience to feel like you've gotten on the wrong side of a turf war when joining an open room. I understand the convenience of the tag, though. It's more maybe a suggestion for having a list of common acronyms, contractions, etc for newbies to reference. Something that mentions for instance that, hey, "SNS" probably indicates Special-Normal-Special combo, "sd" is usually short for "Shifta/Deband," or that there are a number of desirable rares with common acronyms of....

Apologies for a first post that might not display an adequate amount of gratitude. I'm appreciative of this relatively stock PSOBB experience being maintained for others to enjoy. Just thought I would use this opportunity to voice a few frustrations that were weighing on me.

Do not apologise, I am glad you participated in this thread, it's always good to get some voice from new players, especially since a lot of new players tend to be shy and hide away from being active in forums.

As for that situation with the delbiters being frozen, the cast should be freezing them. I have no idea why the FO was angry, perhaps he froze them too early (so no target) or there was some desync where they froze untargetable for the FO but not for him (no one's fault).

As an EU player on a US ship, everything is always a second behind so I often run into NT with people freeze trapping (also slow gibbles life), it's just something I personally have to accept and deal with, nobodies fault. I do love EU Ship games though when I get them!

With Freeze Traps concerned, you can also refill them by dieing and asking no one to revive you (by using a scape doll to revive). It can be a pain learning what traps to use sometimes but 90% of the time freeze traps are the best option. People dislike them on some enemies that can get frozen with no target (like merissa's in EP4 if you do too early), but in general, they are good to use on almost anything. If you are unsure and over-use FT then that is absolutely fine, don't stress about that. In some quests, if you are the only cast it can be terrible trapping everything even with the spawn knowledge. Try not to confuse a spawn someone is freezing but otherwise freezing anything goes. People do like to confuse groups of lizards to group them for excal usage but you see sometimes rangers using FT to hell shot/needle from behind.

Episode 2 is very unforgiving to new players, once you have more gear, knowledge and experience in these areas/learn spawns more they will become easier to deal with and become some of your most enjoyable areas.

I have seen the issue with acronyms a few times, I personally start with FT or SD and if I get nothing in response I assume they are new and type it out or use a chat command. It can be tough being new and not knowing any of the acronyms for sure but that's on us the older players to be less aggressive in our asking of things and be more understanding. This thread: https://www.pioneer2.net/community/threads/pso-acronym-terms-guide-work-in-progress.12047/ is a list of PSO Acronyms, if you see anyone else struggling with any we use/is new feel free to link it to them!

In general, people just need to have a lot more patience if they are going to engage in public games, can't expect anyone to know anything. Everything is a bonus here if it goes well.

 

[pierrot]

As for that situation with the delbiters being frozen, the cast should be freezing them. I have no idea why the FO was angry, perhaps he froze them too early (so no target) or there was some desync where they froze untargetable for the FO but not for him (no one's fault).

O~h~! That seems like a pretty reasonable explanation. I would imagine that was probably it. I'll have to watch out for that when trying to hit other's traps to detonate them. Thanks for the general trap tips!

Episode 2 is very unforgiving to new players, once you have more gear, knowledge and experience in these areas/learn spawns more they will become easier to deal with and become some of your most enjoyable areas.

Hopefully it's somewhat apparent that I was being a little facetious about EP2, but yeah, I find the additional monsters (and pairings of things like Gillchichs with Delsabers) to be an absolute nightmare. Really meant to say that I find them frustrating, so I can understand why others would get frustrated on some of the EP2 maps. I have felt a little more comfortable with Tower lately, at least.

This thread: https://www.pioneer2.net/community/threads/pso-acronym-terms-guide-work-in-progress.12047/ is a list of PSO Acronyms, if you see anyone else struggling with any we use/is new feel free to link it to them!

Oh, this is perfect! Thank you! I missed it somehow. I actually hadn't realized there was a guide section in the forums.

 

[Dashie IOW]

I wanted to mention something specific and then I got to this post by Matt and its about the same weapon I was gonna mention.

So a few days ago I got in a group and there was no cast or CC. So I specifically said Im gonna use my SN, cause its all i had on my ranger, and CC. I tried switching to vulc after id stun the wave in front but by then the other two rangers had burned everything down with Baranz. So i basically just did CC with SN the whole run and would just para the few in front and let them burn the rest lol. It was one of the fastest mae runs ive been in. I always try to make sure theres a CC because it slows you down if everyone keeps getting interrupted constantly. Unfortunately in PSO you have to make sure your not over attacking when you do it. So there can be a time and a place for something and we dont want to assume its not gonna work just because someone is using the wrong weapon or something.

That being said, even though i played on and off for 20 years, it was mostly solo and thank god there have been a few people that have taken the time to nicely help me learn to play better. Since coming here I have learned to play cast way better, play Fo in multi, and lots more. I still have so much to learn, like better wave preparation and such. I appreciate when people help me but at the same time its also nice when people let you figure it out.

A few weeks ago I tried using DP in a Ult desert run... ya lets just say it was one of the slowest ive been in. It works great if theres 3+ RAs doing it or if your solo. if not it sucks. Sometimes until you try it yourself its hard to realize how bad something is lol.

Anyway I wanted to say good job to the community for all these posts I see many brilliant ones that give very good advice. A few that I think are really good are doing several runs with or becoming friends with someone before giving advice, unless they ask. And another I saw was to play with like minded people. If your playing in randoms you gotta deal with what you get, flipping out and being toxic will not help, and usually only makes you look stupid. I have see people so worked up that they RQ in the first room of a run. Please before you have a heart attack or give one to others go join a private game with your friends.

Anyway great job guys! I look forward to reading many more brilliant post from a great community!

Not to make excuse or to downplay what you have said. As you make some really good points and I have come close to having a go at someone for saying stuff like "scared of freeze traps" or something stupid to a Cast in my group during a quest. But I think joining during the event is quite difficult, not saying all parties and people are like this. But sometimes people just assume a level of skill from random people. And if you don't play at this skill, they might lash out. But if they do, just blame list. But I would say like 99% of people are very friendly :3 If you see "Dashie" around, say hi. If I'm free, I'm down for anything :3

 

[Kevdo]

The answer to the original question is very simple, and this is true in life in general, not just in a video game:

Only give people advice when they ask you for it. If they don't ask you for advice, there's probably no need to be giving it unwarranted.

Are you the kind of person to walk up to strangers at the mall and start telling them how they should be investing their money or how they should be choosing better romantic partners? That kind of blunt approach might work with friends you've known for a while, but certainly not people you've just met. Perhaps we should set up some social skills classes for people, lol.

 

[Argajag]

I've worked in education as well as trained people for years at work, so I like to frame it as a work related injury.