Tagging Experience

[FIghter]

Tagging enemies takes skill? What? Playing efficiently takes skill. In any game with a modern experience system, playing efficiently is generally viewed as contributing to the party because everyone benefits. If PSO had such a system, then maybe there wouldn't be so many people who are morally opposed to playing the game correctly.

"Tagging enemies takes skill? What? Playing efficiently takes skill"

Tagging is playing efficiently so it takes skill to do that.

"In any game with a modern experience system, playing efficiently is generally viewed as contributing to the party because everyone benefits"

This is a non sequitur and comes across as gibberish to be honest.

"If PSO had such a system, then maybe there wouldn't be so many people who are morally opposed to playing the game correctly."

Eh? lolol

 

[Arsuru]

Forgive me for repeating some things, I'm just kind of going on and replying to things said here and there, and to both @MelloMoka and @Koko.

Hunters - Do more damage and usually get the killing blow to gain more EXP, though they generally hit less enemies.
Rangers - Generally hit more enemies and often enough get the killing blow.
Forces - Should be hitting every enemy generally, though less often get the killing blows.
Casts - Traps

When you just play normally and in the way the game is intended, at similar levels, in typical groups the spread of experience gained is pretty even, but Forces will generally gain more EXP. Forces should never have trouble leveling, especially with how strong techniques are in One Person mode. Offline mode was a thing, after all. It's easier for a reason.

I can understand why it may not be a popular mechanic, but simply put, if you play your class's role properly you should have no issues getting EXP even if you do not tag every single thing. Leveling in PSO is generally kind of slow past a certain point and I do not really view the current system as problematic. Being so focused on gaining EXP is problematic. Specifically going out of your way to tag is even at times detrimental to leveling or clearing efficiently, and as a grinding game, efficiency is relatively important. I don't think some people appreciate certain quests or areas that require splitting up and actual cooperation, but there are plenty of them.

I get that not everyone can stomach N-VH, but if you just play, and hunt items that you can use for your level, and use them effectively, honestly, you level just fine. TTF certainly has its uses but if it's boring to grind it, then simply don't. It's certainly not always the fastest way to level, especially as a Force.

And I main Force. I pretty much started Force here. There is absolutely nothing weak about them early on except their survivability, and you just have to learn to not get hit. Contrary to many, I think Force is one of the easiest to start with since generally people want one and the most basic roles are easy to fulfill. Low-level techs work just fine. You support in a party and get a ton of EXP and items, and you can nuke respectably in One Person while you are weaker. You are not supposed to enter Ultimate and have an easy time. There is a progression. If you are healing so much that you can't tag with debuffs first there are problems with how others are playing. Nobody has to do all three attacks in a combo, leaving themselves open to get hit.

I leveled a HUnewearl in Seasons to 200. Sure, I have a lot of time, but I was out of VH in only a couple weeks or something, and that was not using the most efficient methods. Starting entirely from scratch, weak everything, broke, you name it. Understanding the game is going to contribute much more to leveling smoothly than more EXP, I feel. I used Bloody Art and Demon's Vulcans, and plenty of Shadow/Dark/Hell fresh into Ultimate to take out enemies when I had nothing else and hardly enough ATP to make Charge worthwhile, even if meseta is easy to come by. Even reduced, "trash" items are very useful if you know how, when, and where to use them. It's almost stupid how effective non-rare items are.

I think this is a solution to a problem that does not exist. It may be convenient, and it may help some people feel less frustrated at first, but they will continue to be frustrated if they never learn how to play and adapt to different party makeups.

Complaining about not having a Spread Needle unless one had been handed to you is really irrelevant. It's an item you would normally not even have access to until Ultimate, and it's somewhat rare. Complaining about not being able to hunt anything yourself is also kind of irrelevant. There are usually people about that can make a game of the ID you need, or you can simply trade, and making another character remains an option. It's pretty uncommon to not have a single PD by time you get to Ultimate.

 

[anime]

"Tagging enemies takes skill? What? Playing efficiently takes skill"

Tagging is playing efficiently so it takes skill to do that.

Can't really understand what you mean by this.
Unsure if you really don't get what playing efficiently means.
Could be just a difference in playstyle...
Knowledge is power!

 

[Spuz]

One thing I dislike about this thread as a whole is that only a select few people have given any advice. Everyone is telling these new players what they are doing wrong and to play different/better in order to solve their issue but no one is really giving any advice how to do so?

Honestly, while HUcast may kill stuff faster, leveling Forces is ALOT faster. Early game and less knowledge can suck for all classes, but that's the whole point of N-VH, it's a learning progression. It's a reason TTF/RT are also bad quests because they allow people to level up fast without learning anything. Sure players like myself who have done 1-80, 100 times over want to get it done with as fast as possible (we would honestly find other ways, pls remove TTF/RT*) but newer players shouldn't do this. There is a lot of the game to be learned in which can be done within earlier modes, a lot of fun to be had, and a lot of hunts you can do. While it may be slow, this is a good thing, because you will learn more.

Telepipes/Ryuker are your friends. Running out of fluids or mates early game because your busy feeding your mag, or vise-versa is a meseta killer and one of the early-game struggles. I understand you want him to resta you because you can't afford mates but then you have to look for a solution. What you can do is loot EVERYTHING and yes I mean EVERYTHING, even if you pipe every room 3 times to sell shit. I am a big looter, even now. All Guards (Blues) and Untekked weapons (once tekked) sell for a decent amount. You can do any max attack first room (or few rooms) in any episode, kill all loot all, get some exp, and sell all the shit to the shop, even play on a lower difficulty if it's too hard atm to play.

One thing that happened recently when seasons started, was that we had a server wide PW3 rooms, everyone was running them since we were all low level with no meseta to do anything. This is because a quick 2 minutes into PW3 is like 33+ boxes (can /lobby afterward). These boxes are FILLED with meseta and good Weapons/Guards since Seabed Upper is Floor 9 (of the 10 floors availaadviceMy advise to you guys is to Either get someone to show you the route or to find them yourself and do a bunch of these runs (1st left, keep going straight). You will find nice weapons/guards/units and tekks to use, among lots of meseta and stuff you do not want, to sell. You can do this in normal, hard, vh and ult, depending on your level.

After doing so you should not need to worry about meseta, you can feed and grow your mags easier to make your stronger and have enough meseta always for fluids/mates. When you get low, do some more PW3 runs etc.

If your getting hit a lot it's a lack of animation/combo knowledge, the best thing to do is learn how to attack. All weapons, have different animations with different classes and not to mention there are units with different speeds. For example, early stages with 0x Speed using a Saber you would be better off not using your full combo (the 3rd attack will get you hit), just use NH then move back to dodge the enemy swing. If you have a sword and 0x Speed just use NN, move back and repeat whilst using your menu when close to enemies**. Since your a HUcast when you see a large group of enemies, instead of attacking them singularly, walk close to them and get them to follow you into a group and then trapshoot*** with either a CT (Confuse Trap) and let them damage each other or use FT (Freeze trap) + use a sword. At this point, the Force could have done J/Z on them all while you were attracting them or at least one Rafoie/Gizonde or a few SI techs (Foie/Barta/Zonde) and everything would be tagged for you both. The key to learning gameplay isn't to rush in head first, it's to take it slow and learn. If you guys keep at it and have patience you'll soon be on your way both having an easy time.

*They are not in seasons and it was literally the best part of it. I honestly would be all for the removal of these quests entirely.
**Bringing up your menu as you move around enemies prevents the slow walking animation and allows you to move freely when close, any menu will do so and is essential in moving around whilst fighting.
***By using the word ''Trapshoot'' I don't mean to simply set a trap and shoot it. What I mean is to instantly shoot it the moment it is set, right above your head. If you stand still and set a trap, do not move you will notice a target pop up on the trap as it bobs up and down above you. This means you can shoot it. So instead of waiting for enemies to walk into traps or for them to go off, you can shoot the trap instantly (Trapshooting), with the enemy in the position you wish.

edit: I think the system is fine as it is and I agree with @Arsuru that it is a solution for somthing that is not a problem.

 

[MelloMoka]

***By using the word ''Trapshoot'' I don't mean to simply set a trap and shoot it. What I mean is to instantly shoot it the moment it is set, right above your head. If you stand still and set a trap, do not move you will notice a target pop up on the trap as it bobs up and down above you. This means you can shoot it. So instead of waiting for enemies to walk into traps or for them to go off, you can shoot the trap instantly (Trapshooting), with the enemy in the position you wish.

I didn't know this. Thanks. I always waited for the trap to explode itself in 3~ secs because turning around the shoot it seemed too much of a bother.

 

[DrSmiley72]

I just don't see why people would be upset with adding shared exp.

Is tagging hard? Certainly not.
Is sharing exp beneficial? Yes! It means more people at high levels to run around together

 

[shadow_FIX]

One thing I dislike about this thread as a whole is that only a select few people have given any advice. Everyone is telling these new players what they are doing wrong and to play different/better in order to solve their issue but no one is really giving any advice how to do so?

Honestly, while HUcast may kill stuff faster, leveling Forces is ALOT faster. Early game and less knowledge can suck for all classes, but that's the whole point of N-VH, it's a learning progression. It's a reason TTF/RT are also bad quests because they allow people to level up fast without learning anything. Sure players like myself who have done 1-80, 100 times over want to get it done with as fast as possible (we would honestly find other ways, pls remove TTF/RT*) but newer players shouldn't do this. There is a lot of the game to be learned in which can be done within earlier modes, a lot of fun to be had, and a lot of hunts you can do. While it may be slow, this is a good thing, because you will learn more.

Telepipes/Ryuker are your friends. Running out of fluids or mates early game because your busy feeding your mag, or vise-versa is a meseta killer and one of the early-game struggles. I understand you want him to resta you because you can't afford mates but then you have to look for a solution. What you can do is loot EVERYTHING and yes I mean EVERYTHING, even if you pipe every room 3 times to sell shit. I am a big looter, even now. All Guards (Blues) and Untekked weapons (once tekked) sell for a decent amount. You can do any max attack first room (or few rooms) in any episode, kill all loot all, get some exp, and sell all the shit to the shop, even play on a lower difficulty if it's too hard atm to play.

One thing that happened recently when seasons started, was that we had a server wide PW3 rooms, everyone was running them since we were all low level with no meseta to do anything. This is because a quick 2 minutes into PW3 is like 33+ boxes (can /lobby afterward). These boxes are FILLED with meseta and good Weapons/Guards since Seabed Upper is Floor 9 (of the 10 floors availaadviceMy advise to you guys is to Either get someone to show you the route or to find them yourself and do a bunch of these runs (1st left, keep going straight). You will find nice weapons/guards/units and tekks to use, among lots of meseta and stuff you do not want, to sell. You can do this in normal, hard, vh and ult, depending on your level.

After doing so you should not need to worry about meseta, you can feed and grow your mags easier to make your stronger and have enough meseta always for fluids/mates. When you get low, do some more PW3 runs etc.

If your getting hit a lot it's a lack of animation/combo knowledge, the best thing to do is learn how to attack. All weapons, have different animations with different classes and not to mention there are units with different speeds. For example, early stages with 0x Speed using a Saber you would be better off not using your full combo (the 3rd attack will get you hit), just use NH then move back to dodge the enemy swing. If you have a sword and 0x Speed just use NN, move back and repeat whilst using your menu when close to enemies**. Since your a HUcast when you see a large group of enemies, instead of attacking them singularly, walk close to them and get them to follow you into a group and then trapshoot*** with either a CT (Confuse Trap) and let them damage each other or use FT (Freeze trap) + use a sword. At this point, the Force could have done J/Z on them all while you were attracting them or at least one Rafoie/Gizonde or a few SI techs (Foie/Barta/Zonde) and everything would be tagged for you both. The key to learning gameplay isn't to rush in head first, it's to take it slow and learn. If you guys keep at it and have patience you'll soon be on your way both having an easy time.

*They are not in seasons and it was literally the best part of it. I honestly would be all for the removal of these quests entirely.
**Bringing up your menu as you move around enemies prevents the slow walking animation and allows you to move freely when close, any menu will do so and is essential in moving around whilst fighting.
***By using the word ''Trapshoot'' I don't mean to simply set a trap and shoot it. What I mean is to instantly shoot it the moment it is set, right above your head. If you stand still and set a trap, do not move you will notice a target pop up on the trap as it bobs up and down above you. This means you can shoot it. So instead of waiting for enemies to walk into traps or for them to go off, you can shoot the trap instantly (Trapshooting), with the enemy in the position you wish.

edit: I think the system is fine as it is and I agree with @Arsuru that it is a solution for somthing that is not a problem.

this is basically the longform thing i wanted to say, but did not take the time to say.

 

[MelloMoka]

I just don't see why people would be upset with adding shared exp.

Is tagging hard? Certainly not.
Is sharing exp beneficial? Yes! It means more people at high levels to run around together

My sentiments at this point. I sincerely appreciate the feedback from those who actually care to help people work with the system, like Spuz. But the only argument against this system that I can get behind--which is less of an argument and more a reality check--is that integrating a system like this could be more of a burden than the team can take on. That I can respect.

 

[ElenorCamuel]

I just don't see why people would be upset with adding shared exp.

Is tagging hard? Certainly not.
Is sharing exp beneficial? Yes! It means more people at high levels to run around together

I tend to agree. The thread is at 5 pages and I have seen well intentioned advice on ways to succeed within the current system, advice coming out of an unaired Captain Planet Episode lecturing OP on what it is to be a good friend/teammate, and variations of "git gud".

What I am not really seeing is anyone explain why they think the current system is better. The closest thing I've seen is the idea of leeching, but I guess (and it appears some people would disagree?) I don't see someone casting rafoie on every spawn but not contributing anything, and someone not casting rafoie and not contributing anything as different.

I like the idea that a FO could go to say a lizard spawn point and stack gifoie, while the rest of the team cleans up a few grunts and everyone get some XP. (I'm guessing an actual good player could come up with a better illustration of this). I really like the idea of a system of XP that doesn't penalize a player for taking an action that is beneficial to the team, in lieu of what is a in most circumstances a useless action that is just done to tag an enemy.

I feel like so far everyone is telling me that cars don't need AC because I can just open the windows

Bad analogies aside, someone sell me on the current XP system over a shared one!

​

 

[Arsuru]

I just don't see why people would be upset with adding shared exp.

Is tagging hard? Certainly not.
Is sharing exp beneficial? Yes! It means more people at high levels to run around together

Well, honestly, people being at a high level does not mean they can contribute well. They will likely die less, at least. You will see with enough time, that people that really know how to play their classes generally do not need to explicitly tag to level (or tag so well that you don't even notice it), and people that focus too much on leveling, or specifically, tagging, are less-skilled.

What I mean here, are people that for example, use techs or traps but never change their weapons to suit the situation, or Forces that insist on using Rafoie before debuffing when it is not needed to stun, and especially when it does not really do any damage. It's not necessarily detrimental to the rest of the group, but you can have situations where it really would not have mattered at all if some player was present or not, and that right there, is essentially what leeching really is. It is already happening. I don't think a lot of people care significantly about someone struggling to keep up just tagging the best the can to get some levels and loot. This is still the first time a lot of people play online, and it can be overwhelming.

You really don't need skill to play this game and be successful, but there are a lot of things about PSO that were obviously made to test a player's ability, and levels only help that so much. With the right knowledge you can clear anything in a given difficulty tier as soon as you hit its entry level with some very simple gear. More levels only make it somewhat smoother and faster. And yes there is a lot more to learn in Ultimate as well. There is a staggering amount of things to learn really for what appears on the surface to be a very simple game, and most of it is really not that important.

Some events have ended up with some pretty large EXP boosts in the past, and there were a lot of people either new or trying new classes that were of very high levels but were not very adept at the playstyle of their classes, because they only wanted to get stronger, not better. In the end it is still a game, and there has to be some level of improvement expected from the players.

Bad analogies aside, someone sell me on the current XP system over a shared one! ​

I don't think there is really anything to sell. There really is no significant drawback of shared EXP, and it realistically fits in with the other changes the server has made. It's an old game and many players are not so young with copious amounts of unburdened time on their hands either. I only think that the original system could make people play in a more efficient manner if they could willingly not prioritize tagging, while shared EXP can only eliminate or lessen the need to go out of one's way to tag but not necessarily make people play in a manner that contributes more to the success of a run. People are generally gravitating toward some manner of efficient play anyway, so I don't think this will suddenly make people use more Twin Brands and less Charge Vulcans.

I suppose there is still the incentive of getting full EXP for the kill, but I doubt that alone will change much. The people getting the full EXP are generally the ones that would hit less targets or are a higher level and simply need more EXP to level so I don't see it as a real problem. PSO is a cooperative game, and generally there are some differences with every class in how they play alone compared to in a group. Expecting to be able to tag everything in a group is selfish.

In my mind, the opportunity for faster clearing and thus more loot is the benefit of not caring about tagging. The example you give of lizards is fine. Not everyone wants to play like that though, so I guess in turn they can have more EXP by not separating. This is really a decent example of what I meant when I said people do not appreciate the quests and areas where splitting and actual cooperation are necessary. Going for maximum kills in Maximum Attack 1 and 2 are some more explicit examples. And almost nobody plays them. Shared drops kind of complicate those now, however.

I should probably make it clear that tagging is generally not a problem. I don't think most people really care. And while improving how one plays to a given level may not matter, there are some basic mechanics that people should get used to, like weapon swapping, if only for their own sake. It does not matter what one's level is if they keep getting defeated.

I should probably also make it clear that I am not really against the idea. I'm also generally willing to sit around and buff/debuff/resta/demon's while accompanying people and letting them do all the killing for levels.

 

[XiCwoodXi]

Wow, I just read this whole thread, well except for that one guys extremely long posts xD, I don't have much to contribute to the post but I would not mind some kinda exp sharing option that you can toggle on or off.

I enjoy helping new players level, but I do kinda dislike having to slow down waiting for them to tag stuff.

I normally just demon needle stuff and let them get the deathblow, but it would be much more efficient if I could just kill fast and move on to the next area asap while they still get points.

 

[Sodaboy]

We've added an experience sharing mechanic to the server.

Closing the topic.