Ade
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Fun is a lot more fun when extra serotonin is being fired into your brain because you feel like you're progressing. :3
Revisit the PD rate increase debate.
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Fun is a lot more fun when extra serotonin is being fired into your brain because you feel like you're progressing. :3
equestriancitizen
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equestriancitizen
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in all honesty i think ephinea needs a cryptocurrency. each item is staked on drop.
GHOSTS
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My problem with things lowering rates is that it could very well lead to an arms race where an item's rate is lowered, but people still get it fairly regularly because everyone humps the one quest that has the best drop of it, so they instead decrease the rate again, and so on until you hit Korean MMO-levels of drop rates to satisfy 12 or so merchants that use PSO to play Spreadsheet Simulator 2001 instead of the playerbase as a whole.
GHOSTS
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Setting a precedent where you decrease the rate for an item could lead to an endless negative feedback loop where people still get the item for whatever reason despite a decreased drop rate, causing another change nerfing the drop rate even more, but people still get it, and so on until the drop rate for an item is so low it'd fit in a Korean MMO. One of the things I like about PSO is the fairly reasonable drop rates for items, and having that destroyed for several items because there is a small group of people that prefer playing PSO as a game you'd see in an Econ 101 class to teach basic economics than a game where you shoot alien scum in the face online with friends does not sound like a good idea to me.
equestriancitizen
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when the hit heaven's striker even happens all will be forgiven
GHOSTS
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My core fear at the heart of any game changes that focus on the economy instead of the game as a whole is it punishing regular players, like the item drop rate decrease I mentioned. I don't like the idea of making things worse or more difficult for everyone because a handful of players are mad that their Monopoly Money (read: PDs) isn't worth as much as it used to be and want to unintentionally sink the whole ship because of it.
Lord_Kratos
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People were upset that their PDs didn't purchase enough and now the purchasing power is through the roof. Anecdotal evidence but I have had 0 issues being able to purchase goods, especially when events sort of reset the economy. I say let the economy free float. There will always be natural times of inflation or deflation, and we just saw, within the two months time I've been playing both of these.
Chronos Notashi
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Basically, what GHOSTS is trying to say is that in order to make certain items as valuable as you'd like them to be, their drop rates would likely eventually have to be taken down as low as Greenill/Skyly/Pinkal/Redria/Whittil Psycho Wand rates (or a rare monster equivalent), if not lower. Except that the 1/299593 drop rate would be the BEST drop rate. Increased PD drops mean nothing in the economical areas of PSO if people still find ways to obtain sought-after/generally-traded rares at a rate faster than the rate of PD generation can handle. So the only way to keep PDs relevant in trading would be to artificially SEVERELY cripple the supply line of sought-after/general-traded rares so that their values will skyrocket due to the severe lack of them. And like GHOSTS said, that would inadvertently punish more casual players who simply want to enjoy the game without feeling like they have to grind for hours for a 0/0/0/0/0 Lame or even just a God/Battle.
Korean MMOs are notorious for having abysmally-low drop rates on the most sought-after items in the most difficult and hair-tearing content, especially for the purpose of encouraging players to spend money on cash advantages, or encouraging small groups of players to abuse bots to generate gold/credits/tradeables/etc and artificially inflate the market severely (again, for the purpose of increasing the likelihood of people spending money on cash advantages to attempt to match that inflation without getting "banned"*). Ephinea encourages neither of those practices, so naturally they'd want to avoid anything that would make it harder for regular players to keep up.
*I put "banned" in quotation marks because usually only the bots themselves (which can easily be replaced with no real loss) get banned instead of the gold buyers/sellers (who would suffer heavy losses if they were), so nothing really changes.
Korean MMOs are notorious for having abysmally-low drop rates on the most sought-after items in the most difficult and hair-tearing content, especially for the purpose of encouraging players to spend money on cash advantages, or encouraging small groups of players to abuse bots to generate gold/credits/tradeables/etc and artificially inflate the market severely (again, for the purpose of increasing the likelihood of people spending money on cash advantages to attempt to match that inflation without getting "banned"*). Ephinea encourages neither of those practices, so naturally they'd want to avoid anything that would make it harder for regular players to keep up.
*I put "banned" in quotation marks because usually only the bots themselves (which can easily be replaced with no real loss) get banned instead of the gold buyers/sellers (who would suffer heavy losses if they were), so nothing really changes.
Eva
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where do i download this
Ade
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Increasing the PD drop rate would not make it harder for regular players to keep up. Everything would normalize quite rapidly. (I'm not sure if that was being asserted, but I'm just pointing that out.)
On on the notion that there's periods of deflation followed by inflation: That's only partially true. What I see happening is the economy deflates a bunch, an event inflates it partially, then after the event it deflates back to where it was, and then even further down. The events aren't keeping it alive. They're just slowing the death.
Stable economies need a viable balance of goods / services versus currency. If one gets too out of whack, the economy will do poorly. Hyper-inflation makes it so that nobody can buy anything and the currency becomes worthless. Hyper-deflation means that nobody wants to sell anything because they feel like they're not getting enough for their efforts. (The currency is too expensive in terms of goods and services.) Both of these slow / stop economic activity. This is why real world economies have control over their currency supply; to counteract the extremes.
PSO has the fortune of possessing objective PD sinks. (Gallon's Shop, Sphereing, etc.) so PDs will always maintain a floor value. Only after a substantial percentage of the playerbase has Sphered all of their gear and obtained all their Sranks will this no longer be a solution. However, a PD rate increase could extend the life of the server for years to come, and make the game more enjoyable. I feel like the opposition is simply in denial that one could lose interest in a game that stops rewarding a player for his efforts after awhile. (This is also why Diablo 3's Paragon leveling system is brilliant.)
Assuming there won't be a constant injection of new players, PSO's economy is terminal regardless of how healthy it is. Our in-game characters don't have any upkeep costs, so eventually wealth will accumulate to the point where nobody will need anything, which runs contrary to the real world. However, it would take a very long time for this to happen. There's a far greater risk that progression-starved endgame players will lose interest if they can't make reasonable progress.
Another striking argument that has not been addressed: Why should a person HAVE to trade in order to accumulate enough PDs to finish their gear? Leveling a character all the way from 1 to 200 without any trading is unlikely to produce enough PDs to fully sphere even ONE item. This also means that the people who trade away their PDs will possibly never get there. The overall progression of the server is dependent on how many new PDs enter the economy from the RNG (aka the Federal Reserve). If there's too little currency in play, it will produce an upside-down pyramid of wealth distribution based on who is the best at "playing the market" rather than "playing the game." Not good. Economies are supposed to be a reflection of the actual state of available goods and services. When there's an unevenly high distribution of wealth to those who are simply good at manipulating money (rather than actually producing a real good or service), collapse is imminent.
On on the notion that there's periods of deflation followed by inflation: That's only partially true. What I see happening is the economy deflates a bunch, an event inflates it partially, then after the event it deflates back to where it was, and then even further down. The events aren't keeping it alive. They're just slowing the death.
Stable economies need a viable balance of goods / services versus currency. If one gets too out of whack, the economy will do poorly. Hyper-inflation makes it so that nobody can buy anything and the currency becomes worthless. Hyper-deflation means that nobody wants to sell anything because they feel like they're not getting enough for their efforts. (The currency is too expensive in terms of goods and services.) Both of these slow / stop economic activity. This is why real world economies have control over their currency supply; to counteract the extremes.
PSO has the fortune of possessing objective PD sinks. (Gallon's Shop, Sphereing, etc.) so PDs will always maintain a floor value. Only after a substantial percentage of the playerbase has Sphered all of their gear and obtained all their Sranks will this no longer be a solution. However, a PD rate increase could extend the life of the server for years to come, and make the game more enjoyable. I feel like the opposition is simply in denial that one could lose interest in a game that stops rewarding a player for his efforts after awhile. (This is also why Diablo 3's Paragon leveling system is brilliant.)
Assuming there won't be a constant injection of new players, PSO's economy is terminal regardless of how healthy it is. Our in-game characters don't have any upkeep costs, so eventually wealth will accumulate to the point where nobody will need anything, which runs contrary to the real world. However, it would take a very long time for this to happen. There's a far greater risk that progression-starved endgame players will lose interest if they can't make reasonable progress.
Another striking argument that has not been addressed: Why should a person HAVE to trade in order to accumulate enough PDs to finish their gear? Leveling a character all the way from 1 to 200 without any trading is unlikely to produce enough PDs to fully sphere even ONE item. This also means that the people who trade away their PDs will possibly never get there. The overall progression of the server is dependent on how many new PDs enter the economy from the RNG (aka the Federal Reserve). If there's too little currency in play, it will produce an upside-down pyramid of wealth distribution based on who is the best at "playing the market" rather than "playing the game." Not good. Economies are supposed to be a reflection of the actual state of available goods and services. When there's an unevenly high distribution of wealth to those who are simply good at manipulating money (rather than actually producing a real good or service), collapse is imminent.
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Knowl
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another one of these lads, really? wew
of all the examples of 'modern gaming' you could have used, why did you pick the game with possibly the worst long-term player retention imaginable? besides the obsessive outliers, paragon doesn't keep people playing that game. the vast, vast majority of the playerbase for D3 return for seasons and drop off after a week or two. all paragon does is create a meaningless feedback loop with greater rifts where, hypothetically, there isn't really a hard limit as to how high you could go, it's just about how much time and/or self-esteem you're prepared to pour into the well.
of all the examples of 'modern gaming' you could have used, why did you pick the game with possibly the worst long-term player retention imaginable? besides the obsessive outliers, paragon doesn't keep people playing that game. the vast, vast majority of the playerbase for D3 return for seasons and drop off after a week or two. all paragon does is create a meaningless feedback loop with greater rifts where, hypothetically, there isn't really a hard limit as to how high you could go, it's just about how much time and/or self-esteem you're prepared to pour into the well.
Ade
;3
@Knowl : That was really just more of a side remark. I'm sorry to hear you don't like the Paragon leveling system. I'm currently Paragon Lv. 1080 or so, so I imagine it will get stale around 2000. I don't get how some people break 4000+. Anyway, I was trying to show that other MMOs have examples of continued progress after hitting a "cap" (real or imaginary). I'm sure there are better examples, yes.
I don't think this detracts from the fact that PSO could use something like this. For most classes, there's little difference between 180 and 200, or even 160 and 200, in terms of performance. (There are rare exceptions of scenarios where those last few levels are important that have been pointed out to me, but for the most part this is true.)
I don't think this detracts from the fact that PSO could use something like this. For most classes, there's little difference between 180 and 200, or even 160 and 200, in terms of performance. (There are rare exceptions of scenarios where those last few levels are important that have been pointed out to me, but for the most part this is true.)
Rappolt
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Another issue is that the ONLY cost of getting items is time. Storage is free, creation is free, creation is defined, etc; so it almost isn't fair to compare Ephinea's "economy" to a true economy, in every regard. Because it's a videogame, and an item doesn't directly correlate to your well-being as a person, there is little incentive to encourage high prices.
An issue with increasing PD drop rate is that anyone with more than a couple hundred will effectively be losing money. A solution to that would be more like a stock split. Half the price (double the drop rate) and double the amount everyone holds. The issue with that is that everyone will try to liquidate before the PDs get doubled, because the prices might not completely double, whereas a PD is guaranteed to double. But liquidation (supply) drives down prices.
But if you only double the rate of PD drops without doubling the stock, people will buy items to hold until the price doubles. This will cause a massive market boom, and if prices don't actually double, then they will have lost PD/stock value. Losing PDs will then cause people to want to sell those items for max value (which increases prices). Buying stock (demand) increases prices.
If you double the rate only, poor folk (like myself) benefit more, but there is a risky opportunity for rich folk to make or lose less money. If you double rate and stock, the effect is immediate, so it creates a sort of gate where poor folk can't easily purchase an item to operate on the same PD-harvesting levels as rich folk, so the rich folk would benefit slightly more.
OR PD-sinks (Namely Spheres and SRanks) can be reduced in cost. This could drive prices down slightly, but could also lead to people creating more items they won't sell, and hunting less for "The right drop," which would decrease supply, thus increasing prices.
Double the rates: Allow prices to change - they may or may not double, but will likely increase. It will be a gradual increase
Double the rates & x2 stock: Prices will double, but then lower a little over time. Instant jump, then gradual decrease.
Do nothing: Prices stay low, with the usual spikes in trading (and thus prices) surrounding events.
Cut PD-sink costs: Uncertainty
But really, everything is dependent on the personalities of the market players, and no amount of speculation will accurately foretell what will happen.
The more we speculate, the more likely it is that someone gets it right, by pure chance.
An issue with increasing PD drop rate is that anyone with more than a couple hundred will effectively be losing money. A solution to that would be more like a stock split. Half the price (double the drop rate) and double the amount everyone holds. The issue with that is that everyone will try to liquidate before the PDs get doubled, because the prices might not completely double, whereas a PD is guaranteed to double. But liquidation (supply) drives down prices.
But if you only double the rate of PD drops without doubling the stock, people will buy items to hold until the price doubles. This will cause a massive market boom, and if prices don't actually double, then they will have lost PD/stock value. Losing PDs will then cause people to want to sell those items for max value (which increases prices). Buying stock (demand) increases prices.
If you double the rate only, poor folk (like myself) benefit more, but there is a risky opportunity for rich folk to make or lose less money. If you double rate and stock, the effect is immediate, so it creates a sort of gate where poor folk can't easily purchase an item to operate on the same PD-harvesting levels as rich folk, so the rich folk would benefit slightly more.
OR PD-sinks (Namely Spheres and SRanks) can be reduced in cost. This could drive prices down slightly, but could also lead to people creating more items they won't sell, and hunting less for "The right drop," which would decrease supply, thus increasing prices.
Double the rates: Allow prices to change - they may or may not double, but will likely increase. It will be a gradual increase
Double the rates & x2 stock: Prices will double, but then lower a little over time. Instant jump, then gradual decrease.
Do nothing: Prices stay low, with the usual spikes in trading (and thus prices) surrounding events.
Cut PD-sink costs: Uncertainty
But really, everything is dependent on the personalities of the market players, and no amount of speculation will accurately foretell what will happen.
The more we speculate, the more likely it is that someone gets it right, by pure chance.
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