EXP Curve Adjustment
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Nikki
meh...
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I will point out, you're probably only harming yourselves here voting against this. This isn't meant to make the whole game easier or something, so much as it is to normalize the grind curve, which before ult but in late VH is oddly disproportionate to the rest of the game. 2x exp milestone isn't coming back if you vote against this or something, just thought I'd point out the obvious that gets missed sometimes.
Another thing I really want to point out. There's been many times I've run into people in another game, that have played PSO, who simply stop before ult because the early game drags on too long. 2x exp was a inelegant and imo improper solution to a problem that should have been addressed by a adjustment ages ago by Sega themselves. Not everyone has the patience of the veteran members of the community, or wants a grind before they get into the real game. From my viewpoint adjusting the curve helps to add retention value to those members who might have been frustrated before. Even if we retain 1 or 2 more people its worth it.
Another thing I really want to point out. There's been many times I've run into people in another game, that have played PSO, who simply stop before ult because the early game drags on too long. 2x exp was a inelegant and imo improper solution to a problem that should have been addressed by a adjustment ages ago by Sega themselves. Not everyone has the patience of the veteran members of the community, or wants a grind before they get into the real game. From my viewpoint adjusting the curve helps to add retention value to those members who might have been frustrated before. Even if we retain 1 or 2 more people its worth it.
phantasystarved
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I mean, you guys do what you want. Thanks at least for asking our opinion before making a change - that's part of the reason why this is my favorite server for Blue Burst.
But I fail to grasp this concept of, "We need to save these new players from the early grind so they don't leave." If someone is already tiring of the game at level 60 or whatever, then they are going to get bored quickly and quit no matter what you do.
PSO on Very Hard is exactly the same game as everywhere else. The reason why so many of you tire of it is because there's no rares that you want there so you consider it drudgery to be endured so you can get to Ultimate. This shouldn't be a problem for new players, right? I mean, they should be finding better gear in VH than in Hard difficulty.
If they aren't, that's because they got free gear from kindly teammates who are trying to be nice. But what that also does is kill incentive to play the game at all. Because now the game is too easy, there's no better gear to find, and all they can do is tediously grind out levels, just like the veteran players. But unlike the way we 20 year vets started, you've unwittingly removed the learning, exploration and fun out of their early game.
If instead of disincentivizing new players from wanting to play the game as it was built to be played, we actually took similarly levelled untwinked characters to party alongside of them, then this would be a total non-issue. If one is too impatient for that - which is understandable if you've played PSO a long time - that's on us, not the game.
I don't mind a 70 requirement for Ultimate, like has been suggested. I can opt out of using it, unlike redoing the xp tables.
Finally, I'd like to apologize, as I know that some of the staff has given this a lot of thought and work and believes it to be the right move. Thanks again for the discussion and looking out for everyone, new players and old. But to change core game mechanics on a server like this should meet a really high standard in my opinion, and this doesn't remotely qualify to me.
But I fail to grasp this concept of, "We need to save these new players from the early grind so they don't leave." If someone is already tiring of the game at level 60 or whatever, then they are going to get bored quickly and quit no matter what you do.
PSO on Very Hard is exactly the same game as everywhere else. The reason why so many of you tire of it is because there's no rares that you want there so you consider it drudgery to be endured so you can get to Ultimate. This shouldn't be a problem for new players, right? I mean, they should be finding better gear in VH than in Hard difficulty.
If they aren't, that's because they got free gear from kindly teammates who are trying to be nice. But what that also does is kill incentive to play the game at all. Because now the game is too easy, there's no better gear to find, and all they can do is tediously grind out levels, just like the veteran players. But unlike the way we 20 year vets started, you've unwittingly removed the learning, exploration and fun out of their early game.
If instead of disincentivizing new players from wanting to play the game as it was built to be played, we actually took similarly levelled untwinked characters to party alongside of them, then this would be a total non-issue. If one is too impatient for that - which is understandable if you've played PSO a long time - that's on us, not the game.
I don't mind a 70 requirement for Ultimate, like has been suggested. I can opt out of using it, unlike redoing the xp tables.
Finally, I'd like to apologize, as I know that some of the staff has given this a lot of thought and work and believes it to be the right move. Thanks again for the discussion and looking out for everyone, new players and old. But to change core game mechanics on a server like this should meet a really high standard in my opinion, and this doesn't remotely qualify to me.
Spuz
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If people can't work out the basics by VH, they are not going to magically pick it up in VH because it's awfully long. I would argue in ultimate they'll be the same players at 200 without the knowing basics. I would say less / more time wouldn't even effect those players. Some people just never learn. Any truly 'new' player if they so desire and care could, would & should pick up the basics before VeryHard. VeryHard as it currently stands does no player benefit in picking up skill before ultimate (literally the same as previous), it's just a really long and 'easy' area in which people get bored before they can discover the real game and addiction that keeps us here. I voted yes.
Melirei
Retired Game Mechanic Novelist
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I've recently changed my vote from "No" to "Yes". I'm not completely happy with it, but even in its current state, I think the proposal will do more good than harm. Still, I think there may be better methods to do this. Below are my feedbacks.
First, the good parts of the proposal.
The proposed change is, in a sense, comparable to a permanent 2x experience boost during VH and early Ultimate. If most people are only able to stand the grind during 2x boosts, this will be good for them, as they are no longer "forced" to level grind only when MSR boosts are active.
The removal of experience boost from the upcoming MSR change is a good change in my opinion. I've always felt the MSR experience boost is too good compared to the two other boosts, DAR and RER. The boosts halves the level grind, while the item hunt length is only reduced by a portion. Due to the MSR, I've personally felt that levels comes by too easily once you've passed the initial hurdle of VH and early Ultimate.
The change also reduces the part of the grind that is less enjoyable for most, and is fairly inline with the previous boosts from MSR.
Another proposal that has been proposed earlier in this thread is to reduce the level for Ultimate to 70. I think this is not a bad idea, as it does not have the main problem I have with the current proposal (see below). The only downside is that when you're at level 70, you're rather weak for Ultimate, and having people carrying you around might or might not be enjoyable for both the low leveled player and the high leveled player, whereas in the proposal, you end up higher leveled in the same amount of time. Generally, the nicer players don't mind carrying low levels, and they just need to make sure the low level players know that as well, so it's still worth considering in my opinion.
Now, the criticism.
The main problem I have with this change is it's not optional, and it's an especially unfriendly change for purists. So far, we have one particular kind of change that is particularly detrimental for purist play throughs: dropchart change. Maybe one would argue that just from this they should give up on purist play throughs on Ephinea. But perhaps they still wish to play here for the DMC fix and the multiplayer aspect, and perhaps they find the chart to be something that can be lived with. (Someone who used to play on Sega servers told me that Sega have made some rather ridiculous dropcharts changes before, so overall they might think the current drop chart is actually acceptable.) This proposal is a very serious change for them, as it directly undermines the legitimacy of their play throughs in my opinion.
Second, if one looks into why VH is disproportionately long, it's because there are no "rewards" in VH. Normal is very short, and Hard is kind of short as well. Ultimate is very, very long. With this in mind it is not farfetched for VH to be longer than Normal or Hard. People do not "respect" VH at all, they never consider it more than the grind before Ultimate, and I believe that's because there are no "worthwhile" rewards in VH. I admit another reason is that VH is also too easy when you're almighty with Ultimate gear.
Imagine if we have a lot more players around, such that it is always possible to find VH parties. I personally think that is sufficient to make VH enjoyable. Many players could probably attest that, when Ephinea is just starting out and no one have gears, getting through VH with VH gear in a party is actually really fun. Unfortunately we do not have that many players, and not much in VH is actually desirable for a player in Ultimate.
If there's a way to make VH fun and rewarding, I think I would prefer that method.
P.S. In case you were wondering about that Sega drop chart: Heaven Striker dropped from Pyro Goran on every single ID on Ultimate.
First, the good parts of the proposal.
The proposed change is, in a sense, comparable to a permanent 2x experience boost during VH and early Ultimate. If most people are only able to stand the grind during 2x boosts, this will be good for them, as they are no longer "forced" to level grind only when MSR boosts are active.
The removal of experience boost from the upcoming MSR change is a good change in my opinion. I've always felt the MSR experience boost is too good compared to the two other boosts, DAR and RER. The boosts halves the level grind, while the item hunt length is only reduced by a portion. Due to the MSR, I've personally felt that levels comes by too easily once you've passed the initial hurdle of VH and early Ultimate.
The change also reduces the part of the grind that is less enjoyable for most, and is fairly inline with the previous boosts from MSR.
Another proposal that has been proposed earlier in this thread is to reduce the level for Ultimate to 70. I think this is not a bad idea, as it does not have the main problem I have with the current proposal (see below). The only downside is that when you're at level 70, you're rather weak for Ultimate, and having people carrying you around might or might not be enjoyable for both the low leveled player and the high leveled player, whereas in the proposal, you end up higher leveled in the same amount of time. Generally, the nicer players don't mind carrying low levels, and they just need to make sure the low level players know that as well, so it's still worth considering in my opinion.
Now, the criticism.
The main problem I have with this change is it's not optional, and it's an especially unfriendly change for purists. So far, we have one particular kind of change that is particularly detrimental for purist play throughs: dropchart change. Maybe one would argue that just from this they should give up on purist play throughs on Ephinea. But perhaps they still wish to play here for the DMC fix and the multiplayer aspect, and perhaps they find the chart to be something that can be lived with. (Someone who used to play on Sega servers told me that Sega have made some rather ridiculous dropcharts changes before, so overall they might think the current drop chart is actually acceptable.) This proposal is a very serious change for them, as it directly undermines the legitimacy of their play throughs in my opinion.
Second, if one looks into why VH is disproportionately long, it's because there are no "rewards" in VH. Normal is very short, and Hard is kind of short as well. Ultimate is very, very long. With this in mind it is not farfetched for VH to be longer than Normal or Hard. People do not "respect" VH at all, they never consider it more than the grind before Ultimate, and I believe that's because there are no "worthwhile" rewards in VH. I admit another reason is that VH is also too easy when you're almighty with Ultimate gear.
Imagine if we have a lot more players around, such that it is always possible to find VH parties. I personally think that is sufficient to make VH enjoyable. Many players could probably attest that, when Ephinea is just starting out and no one have gears, getting through VH with VH gear in a party is actually really fun. Unfortunately we do not have that many players, and not much in VH is actually desirable for a player in Ultimate.
If there's a way to make VH fun and rewarding, I think I would prefer that method.
P.S. In case you were wondering about that Sega drop chart: Heaven Striker dropped from Pyro Goran on every single ID on Ultimate.
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Arsuru
迷子
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I know some of us would disagree, and I do not generally mind, but I do understand. Not everyone can be a teacher.
Anyway. @Nikki Don't worry, I get it at least. Having been so vocal, I guess I feel a need to iterate. I think anything more I say at this point is basically rephrasing myself in a less-messy manner.
In my time here, I've come to feel that I really see PSO differently than a lot of you seem to in general. But I guess that is my problem, and that is neither here nor there. Sorry fam. Too passion.
phantasystarved
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Ok, what about a /vhboost command that toggles a personal extra 1x xp multiplier if you're between level 40 and 79.
Everyone gets what they want that way.
Everyone gets what they want that way.
Ayria
Member
Matt's master plan: Get every new player running ult TTF till their eyes bleed.
Seriously though, it's a good change, but moving the 200 goalpost (removal of 2x exp) is kinda shitty for those starting out.
I just hope the new milestone system isn't completely neutered and overshadowed by increasingly overpowered event buffs. Encouraging people to log in between events is definitely a good thing (even if it's amplified by a shit leveling experience.)
You should have just implemented this like the DMC fix as it's a minor change that few players would have immediately noticed, but I'm glad retention is finally being taken seriously.
This thread is a fucking saltmine too, thanks team.
Seriously though, it's a good change, but moving the 200 goalpost (removal of 2x exp) is kinda shitty for those starting out.
I just hope the new milestone system isn't completely neutered and overshadowed by increasingly overpowered event buffs. Encouraging people to log in between events is definitely a good thing (even if it's amplified by a shit leveling experience.)
You should have just implemented this like the DMC fix as it's a minor change that few players would have immediately noticed, but I'm glad retention is finally being taken seriously.
This thread is a fucking saltmine too, thanks team.
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Lileya
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BTW, I just wanted to point out, because nobody has mentioned that yet (unless I missed it), lvl80 is not the official Sega Ultimate level requirement. The official Sega server had these requirements:
Lvl90 Episode I
Lvl100 Episode II
Lvl110 Episode IV
Hard and Vhard had similar increments (lvl20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70). So the "drag" through very hard was even longer on Sega server. The lvl requirement has already been altered on this server compared to the real "Vanilla" experience.
(I'm aware Ultimate lvl requirement was 80 on PSO GC
But this is BlueBurst afterall.)
Lvl90 Episode I
Lvl100 Episode II
Lvl110 Episode IV
Hard and Vhard had similar increments (lvl20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70). So the "drag" through very hard was even longer on Sega server. The lvl requirement has already been altered on this server compared to the real "Vanilla" experience.
(I'm aware Ultimate lvl requirement was 80 on PSO GC
But this is BlueBurst afterall.)
Snow Hawk
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I will say I could've used a better example even though adept is a unit, but even with being able to use hs and excal at lvl 10 it's annoying to level
D
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If you want to make a less controversial change, just lower the level requirement on ultimate rather than doing this.
(Not that my opinion matters, I've already left the server because of controversial changes)
EDIT: Only reason I even saw this thread was cuz of discord notifications
(Not that my opinion matters, I've already left the server because of controversial changes)
EDIT: Only reason I even saw this thread was cuz of discord notifications
Grindahol
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As a noobie who joined during the event, at first I was enjoying the long grind and playing /purist, then I warmed up to the idea of using the multiplier to get out of early modes easier.
I guess I'm not familiar with how you guys operate outside the event, so I'll abstain from voting, but I do think /purist should always be an option.
I guess I'm not familiar with how you guys operate outside the event, so I'll abstain from voting, but I do think /purist should always be an option.
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Going to close this. It won't be happening because it didn't meet the threshold to pass.
I will note the reason this change was proposed over other ones are for the following reasons:
1. Lowering the requirement to Ultimate -- bad idea because people already bitch about double digits in their games anyway
2. Changing the VH enemy EXP -- bad idea because it will make almost no difference unless it ends up being better than Ultimate for levelling
3. EXP boost up to a certain level -- feels very private server / romhacky, not exactly a change Ephinea should implement
4. Allowing players to transfer EXP from higher characters -- removes people from the grinding process and makes N-VH even more "dead" for newer players
I will note the reason this change was proposed over other ones are for the following reasons:
1. Lowering the requirement to Ultimate -- bad idea because people already bitch about double digits in their games anyway
2. Changing the VH enemy EXP -- bad idea because it will make almost no difference unless it ends up being better than Ultimate for levelling
3. EXP boost up to a certain level -- feels very private server / romhacky, not exactly a change Ephinea should implement
4. Allowing players to transfer EXP from higher characters -- removes people from the grinding process and makes N-VH even more "dead" for newer players
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