Event weapon drops and overall progression.

[Aleron Ives]

Was this really the Dreamcast PSO meta?

You're correct regarding the meta 10+ years ago, but I was talking about the current Dreamcast PSO meta. Most of the active players use my mod that fixes the stats on V1 weapons so they are usable in Ultimate (which I also buffed), as well as making it possible to find more weapons besides Red Handgun and Imperial Pick. I also created a shop quest where DC players can augment their weapons, but unlike GC/BB, you can't boost your attributes to the maximum that way, which means you must still hunt high percentages yourself. As with the GC and BB metas, the DC meta has changed significantly since the game's release.

 

[Sodaboy]

Oh, okay. I got confused by your post...

When you said the Dreamcast PSO meta, I was thinking the original PSO Dreamcast meta, not a new meta created by private servers today.

And when you said the original PSO incarnation holds lessons regarding what Sega did wrong when they did the GameCube rebalancing, I took it as it was better before GameCube.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Nikki]

That was part of why I said what I said because I remember Ives saying stuff like this before. IIRC I think I heard that BB jacked up the stats even more or somethin? or maybe its just the gamecube carry-over. Dunno, I've never looked into the overall stats of enemies myself, but either way I've always felt the reliance on hit is kinda silly all things considered. Its still really cool to have that really rare high hit weapon though.

 

[Aleron Ives]

And when you said the original PSO incarnation holds lessons regarding what Sega did wrong when they did the GameCube rebalancing, I took it as it was better before GameCube.

The original meta does indeed hold lessons. V2 Ultimate has DFP difficulty, whereas GC uses EVP difficulty. DC Ultimate is hard at first, but once you get some basic weapons like Imperial Pick, missing is no longer a problem. DC Ultimate demands that you use rare weapons in order to get anywhere, both because of their ATP and their ATA. Without damage attributes, you're probably going to hit for 0 damage, even with a rare, though. This means that Hit is overall the least important attribute, because rares give 100-200 ATA already, which is enough for DC enemies' EVP. Imperial Pick gives 234 ATA, so missing isn't a problem. If your weapon has 0% Dark though, then you're in big trouble.

Sega decided to mostly eliminate the concept of doing 0 damage in GC, and instead they implemented a system where you miss. This leads to the obsession over the Hit attribute in GC and BB, because once you have enough ATA to pass the enemy's EVP check, Ultimate becomes a joke. The nerfing of the other weapon attributes made it feasible to have a shop where you can put 100% on any weapon, because attributes aren't really needed to dominate the enemies, anyway. Since any weapon can be forced to have 100%, this devalues hunting attributes besides Hit, since it's the only one you can't boost manually. The overall nerfing of rares also leads the problem where shop weapons outclass most rares, since Charge is the best special in the game. DC avoids this problem by forcing you to use rares in Ultimate, so while you can buy Charge weapons, they're either going to miss or do 0 damage in Ultimate.

The changes I made were mostly to diversify the equipment options on DC, so the meta doesn't boil down to "get Imperial Pick and profit", the way it was when you played the game. Not only can you find more items than before, but if you get a rare with 0%, you have an option to buff it a little to the point where it's useful, but not to where it eliminates the point of hunting a better one. The core gameplay differences between V2 and V3 remain, though.

 

[Aleron Ives]

IIRC I think I heard that BB jacked up the stats even more or somethin? or maybe its just the gamecube carry-over.

Sega decided to close the gap between Very Hard and Ultimate in GC by nerfing the enemy stats and the weapon stats. Low to mid tier rares now have around the same stats as common weapons, and the enemies are scaled to match, so doing damage is no sweat. This fixed the problem of Ultimate being way too hard at level 80, but it introduced a new problem of Ultimate being way too easy by level 140. To compensate for this, Sega added attacks that instantly chain you to death, as well as many attacks that one shot you. GC enemies actually have less EVP than DC enemies, but weapons now give +40 ATA instead of +140 ATA, so landing special attacks is much more difficult. As if this wasn't enough, Sega also added a distance penalty to ATA for Hunters and Forces, making it impossible for them to use 0% guns.

Sega had good intentions: the fact that ATA is largely meaningless on DC meant that Rangers were just worse Hunters with lower ATP, so Rangers did need buffing. Another big problem on DC is that androids suck, because you can't do any damage without Shifta and Zalure. Nerfing the enemies' DFP solved that problem, but Sega always goes way overboard during rebalancing. Sega nerfed the enemies so hard that Techniques became an afterthought. HUcast can CK mobs easily as long as he has enough ATA to land his attacks, so having Tecniques is rather superfluous. The instant death mechanics Sega added to balance out the nerfed enemies are completely defeated by Freeze Trap, since enemies die before the freeze timer wears off.

This results in the situation where HUmar and HUnewearl are the butts of jokes, because their Techniques are inconsequential compared to the superior ATP and traps that androids have. Androids have less ATA, but frozen enemies have less EVP, and the Hit attribute more than makes up for the ATA deficit. Instead of fixing the class balance problems, Sega merely went from a situation where fleshies were clearly superior to a situation where androids were clearly superior.

DC had a lot of problems that Sega fixed in GC, but Sega added a whole slate of new problems in the process. GC and BB mechanics are identical; the only difference is that BB has new items that break the V3 "balance" even more.

 

[Varista]

You should approach discussions with the attitude that the other person might know something you don't. I've asked you many times to stop acting like a rhetorician or a sophist, so I'm done dealing with you. You just want to grandstand and put me in my place, so have at it. If I say you win, will you go away?

(I said I wasn't going to post in this thread again, but Zues felt it necessary to be an opportunist about that, so I felt it necessary to address it.)

I do approach all of my discussions with this idea in mind, it's how I learn. But the irony of this conversation is that I don't like talking about it. That's what makes it such a distinctively one way discussion a lot, because players like to believe they understand what makes their game good, but they simply don't get it.
You can personally like how the game is for your own reasons, nobody is telling you that you can't, and I'm certainly not going to argue opinions, but I was never arguing opinions.

I find it of the highest irony that the man that compares himself to Socrates un-ironically would get annoyed when some one even comes close to arguing like a philosopher in any way. Quite ironic if you ask me.

It's not about winning, Ade. It's about getting things done right. And if you don't wanna get things done the right way then I'm going to comment about it. You're comparing my actual in game experience to just bragging and grandstanding. I don't feel the need to grandstand on a topic that is strictly about saving your game's economy lest it just turn into a Schthack shit fest in 2 more years.

(Also I didn't know you were not wanting to comment anymore, I didn't reply to you with that in mind at all, you're making a LOT of assumptions of my motives because you either don't like me, my arguments, or the way you feel insulted by the way I deliver them, which is ironic, because, again, you un-ironically compare yourself to Socrates and use your philosophy degree to metaphorically shout people down in arguments all the time.)

 

[Ade]

@Zues It looks like someone's been reading some third party commentary on me. Good show. I guess we're done here since this has devolved into personal attacks. I have always been far from perfect, but I don't see the need to dredge up past imperfections. Not that I could, as I have no idea who you were before this. Nice to see you using every advantage you can dig up to find that "truth."

 

[Eistee]

This results in the situation where HUmar and HUnewearl are the butts of jokes, because their Techniques are inconsequential compared to the superior ATP and traps that androids have.

Actually, on BB, HUney is seen as a better choice in Ep1 (and Ep2?) than a FO at this point when it comes to clearing quests the fastest way possibe. It's a late one, but she did get her redemption arc after all.

Isn't HUney absolute trash on ver2 since HUmar basically outclasses her in every single way that matters?

 

[Aleron Ives]

Actually, on BB, HUney is seen as a better choice in Ep1 (and Ep2?) than a FO at this point when it comes to clearing quests the fastest way possibe.

That's not quite what I was getting at. HUmar and HUnewearl are mocked for having no strengths compared to HUcast. Forces bring Shifta 30, which is beneficial. Of course HUnewearl will do more damage than a Force (except maybe FOmar, depending on level and equipment), but you'd still do even better with another HUcast, unless you have no other fleshy around, in which case you probably want RAmarl, not HUnewearl.

Isn't HUney absolute trash on ver2 since HUmar basically outclasses her in every single way that matters?

No, her EVP is way better, so she blocks more reliably in Mine, whereas HUmar tends to get chained to death by blocking once and then getting hit several times during the block animation, thus preventing him from falling down or getting respite. She also heals 1106 compared to his 833, so she never needs Trimates, whereas he does, such as to clear Dark Falz deathless. Since DC gameplay has a more arcade hack and slash style than GC, superior healing is a big benefit. The nice thing about the DC Shifta and attribute formulas is that max stats are less important than in GC/BB, since good equipment lets you make up for base stat deficits.

 

[cameron-]

Actually we like huney over ramarl in lots of places like E1+tower Wow the chanceto teach Ives something about pso is so deliiciuss

 

[Eistee]

Ah, Ives, you misunderstood. Of course HUney is worse in a party with a FO than another cast. However, HUney is considered by many to be better than a FO (and RAmarl) in Episode 1 at this point. Shifta 20 is enough with three androids around and she simply has better weaponry, ATP (higher than any FO even with "only" S20) and ATA than all the FOs, wich matters more in the long run than S30.

This is a relatively recent "shift in the meta" for BB, though, so it makes sense that you haven't heard about it yet. But HUney definitely is not a joke character on BB any longer. RAcaseal kinda has that title now.

About ver2 HUney:
Shouldn't EVP and arguably Resta kind of not matter at higher level play? Are traps a lot worse than on GC/BB? What can a HUney do on ver2 in a party with a FO that makes her usable over, say, a HUcast? Just curious.

 

[Matt]

Maybe its because newbs are newbs and don't know better. Kinda like characters having ubers like HP/MM/Guld Millas but not supporting.

Not to be rude here but I've taken out your video as it somewhat comes off as an accusatory video towards a specific player.

Feel free to discuss how it might be strange that many RAmarls don't seem to realise JZ is very useful on her (as an example), but let's not single out certain players.

 

[Aleron Ives]

HUney definitely is not a joke character on BB any longer.

Well, at least she's not lonely anymore.

Shouldn't EVP and arguably Resta kind of not matter at higher level play? Are traps a lot worse than on GC/BB?

There's no such thing as high level play, really. The game is not conducive to TA, because of how strong the enemies are. Freeze Trap is helpful, but most of the enemies will still be alive when it wears off, so it doesn't give you free kills for an entire wave like it does on GC/BB; it just gives you time to regroup. If you have a HUcast in a full team, he's definitely stronger than HUnewearl, but nobody really cares about that, except in Challenge mode. Having Techniques is just more flexible and more important than having traps.

Wow the chanceto teach Ives something about pso is so deliiciuss

There are many things I don't know about the TA meta, seeing as I don't TA.

*edit*

I realise in retrospect I may have been unclear. I meant there is no TA scene on V2, not that one could never exist. Nobody has ever tried to create one to my knowledge, as it goes against the game's culture.

 

[Maverick]

FWIW

Back when I made a ramarl a few years ago, my plan was to save some PDs and get basic gear like a FS, SN, Vivienne, etc. At the time, I knew prices were reasonable for 30h variations of these items. They would be solid to start with, and then I would eventually hunt for better versions.

A year later, I noticed that a small group of players bought the vast majority of these items. Some did it to team point them and remove them from the game, others held onto them to sell them for absurd prices once the supply was diminished.

So much for that plan.

I play events not to get Ubers, but to get decent enough gear that will “do the job” while I hunt for better stuff. I see no reason to prevent players from having relatively easy access to what amounts to starter gear, nothing more.

I genuinely have no idea how some players are able to play as many as they do. After starting full time work a few years ago, I don’t have time to grind this game relentlessly. Yes, I understand that players who put more time in are going to be better off. I’m not asking to be boosted, or even for an even playing field. I’m asking for the opportunity to even step onto the same field in the first place.

Sure, if I wanted that 30h Frozen Shooter I could always hunt for one. It’s a pretty easy hunt. But when you find 5 and the best one is 15h, it gets a bit frustrating. I want to spend my time actually PLAYING the game and enjoying different types of content, not grinding away trying to obtain the very basics. It feels like a waste of time.

At this point I’ve become 90% event player, 10% regular time player.

10 years ago, I would have no problem grinding this stuff out with no events. Now? Things have changed. Seasons was fun for a time, but playing PSO from scratch for the 73rd time in 15 years is not enjoyable.

Honestly, the most tiresome part of reading this thread was seeing the opinions of players who are essentially this server’s 1%. Maybe they thought that Seasons was an accurate representation of a noob’s experience here or something.

Obviously this is all anecdotal—I’m not pretending my experience is shared by others. I’m merely expressing my opinion that this server caters more and more to those that are already well-off, and that you can make the experience better for newer players without “ruining the game” for them (because we all know that’s your actual concern )


And just so we’re clear, Schthack died because they lost everyone’s data and were a bunch of shitheads in the first place. This server has been the de facto “main” server since then. Pretending that it died because of its economy is laughable.

 

[cameron-]

^I believe it's been stated but users who started in the last year will have had a much easier time getting established and gearing up with the basics due to the new accessibility of liquid featured prominently in events in a way that was not the case, for example, when i started on ephinea in march 2018. Whether you were earning spheres for relatively small amounts of gameplay in the scavenger event or selling cookies to the cookie cartels, new users have had access to PD's and thus gear in a way that older users did not.

Progression for new users on this server is, in the time i've been here, accelerated to an all-time high. and as ubers have been (seemingly and thoughtfully) removed from event reward lists, the number of items coming into the market that 1%'ers like myself desire and can afford is actually decelerating at a rapid pace.

My buddy who started during halloween is now moving beyond gear which 'does the job' and into comprehensive s-rank acqusition and hit% items. In a month he has gear that took me months and months to acquire as a new user 2 years ago. So i fundamentally and profoundly disagree with your assessment that ephinea's event direction is produced in a way that benefits older users and disadvantages new users.

 

[Nikki]

And just so we’re clear, Schthack died because they lost everyone’s data and were a bunch of shitheads in the first place. This server has been the de facto “main” server since then. Pretending that it died because of its economy is laughable.

It definitely didn't die because of Economy, that much I can agree on almost outright. Though it did have a factor in player retention, along with the ubers that were released. Schthack's economy was a laugh riot before I quit, and honestly is probably the reason I didn't ever participate in the economy even here, where its nice. It made me want to be self reliant for my gear for the most part. I remember there were fucking charge assaults that ppl were paying 2000 pds for or so. I know that economy was inflated as fuck but come the fuck on rofl. Thats indefensible no matter how its twisted. Dunno, even today that servers old economy is fun to look back at. All because of the busted ubers and non transparent rates and cheaters.

 

[Matt]

30H Frozen Shooter is not "starter gear".

Anyway, not too much point of this thread continuing. Events are either too strong or too weak, and never just right, it'll always be one group complaining about them so they will come how they come.