Event weapon drops and overall progression.

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Let's not make alts or ban evade to shitpost in this thread plz!!!!!11
 
I think some middle ground here would be best. We don't need 30% hit everything, but maybe some nice 20% hit items would be in order. The Gold Badge prizes from the Hunter during the Summer Event were not useful at all. The only real utility of Gold Badges was to save up 99 (Or 90 or whatever it cost) to buy a Sphere or sell them to someone else who was doing the same. I don't think that was a good solution, either.

When you want to fix something, you don't have to do a complete 180 and suck all the fun out something. It's a telltale sign when I found myself getting more excited over Silver Badges dropping rather than Golds.
 
Zues said:
1.) I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. While it is strange for the economy of items to bolster value of low end (in value) items I dont necessarily see that as something that disables new players from getting into the game. I think, if anything, that it really shows how consistent the value system tends to be after a long period of time, that things like these don't just suddenly have 0 value.

2.) That's not the definition of unfair.

un·fair
/ˌənˈfer/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
  1. not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
    "at times like these the legal system appears inhumane and unfair"
    • unkind, inconsiderate, or unreasonable.
      "you're unfair to criticize like that when she's never done you any harm"
    • not following the rules of a game or sport.

In this instance, not following the rules of a game is the most logical definition. How are these people not following the rules? They play the game fairly, they earn what they get fairly. Simple as that.

We can also use the unreasonable definition too. What's considered unreasonable? I think that really is subjective to the person. What you consider to be unreasonable to a new player I consider to be perfectly fair. I've been around the block with arguments like these, where older players try to vouch for newer players by telling everybody that it's unfair for players who are new to struggle to get items that older players already got from previous events. The argument itself is flawed. It's because of previous events giving out such good items and the backlash of those event systems that lead to events having less than stellar (comparatively) event items than previous. Essentially Ade, what you're asking for, can be boiled down to something that benefits you as a veteran player more than it benefits a new player overall, and is worse for everybody as a collective.

All you're seeking to accomplish is to give new players an avenue for great, high end items through events and also to lower prices. But who does that really help? I would argue it helps the established player much more than a newer player if anything. Makes the established player capable of getting even more high end gear even easier than before, and allows that established player to abuse the market by selling these items because they have more of them. Granted, lower priced obviously, but it feels like it effectively makes the established player richer as a result (because compared to selling a 30h Zanba for 40 PD's and nobody buying one, you're selling it for 10 and making a profit of 10 per instead of nothing per. You're selling it for lower, but overall making a profit.) which doesn't really accomplish anything.

And not to sound insulting, but I see a lot of Ade coming to the rescue of new players over economics and event reward systems but I don't see a lot of new players coming on here and complaining about how economics are messed up and the event needs to be more rewarding. It's a lot of Ade coming to their rescue when they never really asked, or even cared for that matter. Maybe it's a non-issue, or maybe Ade's right and its something that needs to change, but I've been around the block enough on this topic to know that it's really a bad idea to halt progression in a game about grinding for progression.
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Events with good drops make everyone richer. Also, the 30% hit higher-tier items, in previous Xmas years, only dropped from the rarest variant of presents. I've never found a top tier Xmas present in all my years of playing. You're acting like they're falling off trees.

Another disingenuous point is that you're saying you don't see any newer players in here posting on behalf of this argument. First off, this thread is less than a day old. Secondly, a lot of newer players probably aren't aware of how much better events used to be.

I really dislike your argumentation style:

"Anime HAD to do this."

"It will make rich players richer."

"I don't see any noobs agreeing with this."

All of these points leave out key components or givens that are fairly obvious. To me it seems like you're more interested in winning the argument than finding out what is true. Notice earlier when I was wrong about something, I admitted it. Every point I've countered to which you lack a rebuttal, such as the walloping economics lesson I had to give a couple of posts ago, has gone unaddressed. You don't argue earnestly, and I dislike that. You're very clever, I'll admit, but that isn't a good thing when it's not paired with honesty.
 
Ade said:
All of these points leave out key components or givens that are fairly obvious. To me it seems like you're more interested in winning the argument than finding out what is true. Notice earlier when I was wrong about something, I admitted it. Every point I've countered to which you lack a rebuttal, such as the walloping economics lesson I had to give a couple of posts ago, has gone unaddressed. You don't argue earnestly, and I dislike that. You're very clever, I'll admit, but that isn't a good thing when it's not paired with honesty.
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You're reading between the lines on the things I say I think. Unfortunately, you seem to be too hard focused on the minute details of the posts I've made rather than the primary focus or point I'm making, which is: It's not unfair just because you say its unfair, and where does the line get drawn between reasonable rewards and plain halting progression?

You've yet to answer the big question. Where is the line reasonably drawn? At what point does it become a game of gearing everybody up for the sake of it? That stage is very easy to reach. It's very easy to reach a point in the game where players feel disrespected by event reward systems. Please do not take my wisdom for granted, Schthack had this exact same problem that made it so quick to die off. Schthack died off so fast after its revival because it could not make the distinction on where to draw the line for event rewards. It put everything and anything in there for the sake of getting new players geared as quickly as possible. Personal biases aside, the facts remain there. Events can kill a server depending on how rewarding they are.

Players need to feel like their time is respected, but also this game thrives on the dopamine feeling of getting that jingle to sound off, seeing the rare you were looking for on the ground and picking it up and tekking it and having it in your hands after months, maybe even years of hunting. That is where PSO's primary reward cycle comes into play. Events are great, there's no doubt about it, but if event rewards MUST be bland in order to preserve the primary reward cycle of the game then that's what has to happen. It's better for rewards in events to be bland than rewards in general to be bland. Because what happens if a new player finds that one really rare present within hours of the event starting and they get the uber they wanted? You've robbed that player of not only the thrill of hunting for it and the feeling of getting it finally, but also robbed them of the basic core game play this game NEEDS to survive. When you revert a grind game's core mechanics by putting the best stuff in events, or lowering economic standards down a level that only you see fit, it breaks the game. Time after time after time again. I can't believe I even need to explain that a grind game should remain a grind game. Leave the best things in the game expensive, leave them to the grind.

And as a side point, it is important for the people you are speaking for as if they're having issues with it to step forward and give their opinions on it. What you're essentially doing, Ade, despite how noble of an effort it is or may be, you're speaking for people. You're speaking as though you're a representative for people when you are not. Inadvertently or not that is what you're doing. And telling people that economics should rise and fall based on what your perception of the value should be isn't fair to the rest of the people you're basically telling to change their prices. We saw the same thing with sranks and their prices, the debate. Telling other people that prices of things should be lower and to sell them for lower because the group you speak for are having a rougher time getting their hands on them is telling people how to play, Ade, and I know how much Ephinea hates people telling them how to play. I know I hate it when people tell me how I should play.

And it is important, that's why I bring it up. I'm not being sly and clever, I'm being very up front with you. You can't just say "people are struggling because I said they are" and not have a single one of the people in question that are struggling come forward and express themselves. You're making a thread about people struggling where nobody you're claiming to speak for has come forward (yet) to talk about their struggle. That is important, like it or not.

Matt said:
FWIW I don't mind you having this discussion, but regardless of what your consensus is between you, we are not re-introducing 30H items to events that are common.
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This ^
 
And not to sound insulting, but I see a lot of Ade coming to the rescue of new players over economics and event reward systems but I don't see a lot of new players coming on here and complaining about how economics are messed up and the event needs to be more rewarding.
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Maybe its because newbs are newbs and don't know better. Kinda like characters having ubers like HP/MM/Guld Millas but not supporting.
 
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Zues: I have answered your question. I say the line is right where it used to be: Have some really nice 30% hit weapons for rewards and only make them appear in the rarest variant of the Christmas Presents.

Obviously this didn't cause a massive exodus like Schtserv because it's already BEEN THAT WAY for all of the years (prior to this year) and we're still the most popular server.

Idk...this server has always had minor and major events. Halloween is an example of a minor event. It's something you can miss and you'll be okay. Now it seems like the major events are barely better than the minor events, which means the times that I looked forward to the most- namely seeing old faces come out of the woodwork to play and take advantage of the amazing prizes- are gone.

Events need to be special and need to draw people back to the game. Matt says the progression on this server is fine right now. I say it WAS fine then. If you want better than 30% hit, you're going to be hunting for a long, long time. Events or not.

@Spuz : Normal market fluctuations after events are not signs of a poor economy. It never took a full year for the economy to recover. The ridiculous over-inflation we see now will only get worse if decent items aren't somehow injected into the economy at a higher rate. This is what stuff is worth when events aren't here to help. My 15% hit Lame auction is up to 30 PDs. That's INSANE.

So yeah, I benefit a TON from this because I'm already geared up, and I was able to gear up much more cheaply. I would benefit WAY LESS if prices came down. But I'd rather see that happen because I'm thinking long term.

I guess I'm not understanding why we don't want newer players to have the same excitement we did. Is this some subconscious effort to hold them down? Nobody got "geared in in 2 weeks" during an event and quit the game as a result. You might get lucky and find one or two really good things during an event. Assuming you have multiple characters, that leaves you about 20 or 30 other major items you have to hunt outside of events. I'm tired of this all or nothing crap. Everyone is taking what I say here to unrealistic extremes and saying that it's a bad idea.

We have 3 years of past events with EXCELLENT rewards that caused a huge increase in players returning to the server. An extremely vocal minority, who suddenly became expert economists, decided this was a bad thing.

Edit: CHB on that Lame is up to 40 PDs now @_@
 
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Matt said:
FWIW I don't mind you having this discussion, but regardless of what your consensus is between you, we are not re-introducing 30H items to events that are common.
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They don't need to be common. Just seeing them on the present list AT ALL would be a huge motivator to play. Even if there was only a small chance a present would contain one.

Think of it this way: If I see a present drop and I know, after reviewing the list that the best thing I could get is a Crazy Tune (for example), then I'm NOT going to be excited when a present drops. And that ruins Christmas ;-;

It doesn't have to be a high chance for something great. Just a little...

And please give Gibbles a Santa Hat... ;-; Like a ridiculously small hat on his giant head.
 
I mean no offence with this but the irony of you Ade using the words unrealistic extremes is creating joy on my soul for days. You create popcorn inducing feels to the community, for that I seriously thank you. Nobody is saying 30h items is an absolutely outlandish crazy idea, just that it has been done in the past and it has not worked. Nobody is saying all or nothing plus only the mod team truly know what is going to be given out at Christmas. Before you get disappointed by what the event may be, wait and see. Also if your stuck being sad and depressed because the only thing the event is giving you is excitement through presents than that's exactly the problem and that should be addressed, to stop this mentality and create an enjoyable event which everyone can partake in regardless of items.

My favourite event was the small section ID badge event which had them changing their location every few days; causing the server to work together to work out said locations. There was literally so little prizes here, outside of PS and some little things. It was hugely fun because the event itself, the content was fun. Items do not have to be the focal point to receive enjoyment and if that's the only thing someone does enjoy I would suggest playing other games honestly or taking a break because you will just obsess and burn yourself out really fast regardless of the content given or items. iirc there was so much good feedback for that event. Seasons 1, being another of the more favoured events from me and many others which had no items at all that was not purely aesthetic or tool-based (I think?). This was purely because the content given, the exploration of ideas was nicely done and enjoyable. Shouldn't this be the goal, for people to have fun? Instead of being obsessed with addiction and gear.

30pds for a 15h lame is hardly insane; In fact, I feel that's pretty cheap for arguably the best weapon in the game where that tiny amount of hit can have a huge factor across the board of characters in many many situations. The economy may get stronger yet, you're right but it won't go forever, items will settle down because pds are not infinite and they will settle into their prices. You see a lot of this starting to happen now. Just because free ubers, 30h items etc are not being given away doesn't automatically make the game harder than it is, it's exactly the same as it is now, as it is year-round, so if anything that shouldn't have a huge impact on fluctuations at all.

People coming back for events only instead of enjoying the game any point of the year is not a good goal imo, and from what I gather the goal is to have people find enjoyment any-time year-round whenever they wish to play and if that so happens to be an event there will be extra content to enjoy. That is the consensus I am seeing is at least.
 
Spuz said:
I mean no offence with this but the irony of you Ade using the words unrealistic extremes is creating joy on my soul for days. You create popcorn inducing feels to the community, for that I seriously thank you. Nobody is saying 30h items is an absolutely outlandish crazy idea, just that it has been done in the past and it has not worked. Nobody is saying all or nothing plus only the mod team truly know what is going to be given out at Christmas. Before you get disappointed by what the event may be, wait and see. Also if your stuck being sad and depressed because the only thing the event is giving you is excitement through presents than that's exactly the problem and that should be addressed, to stop this mentality and create an enjoyable event which everyone can partake in regardless of items.

My favourite event was the small section ID badge event which had them changing their location every few days; causing the server to work together to work out said locations. There was literally so little prizes here, outside of PS and some little things. It was hugely fun because the event itself, the content was fun. Items do not have to be the focal point to receive enjoyment and if that's the only thing someone does enjoy I would suggest playing other games honestly or taking a break because you will just obsess and burn yourself out really fast regardless of the content given or items. iirc there was so much good feedback for that event. Seasons 1, being another of the more favoured events from me and many others which had no items at all that was not purely aesthetic or tool-based (I think?). This was purely because the content given, the exploration of ideas was nicely done and enjoyable. Shouldn't this be the goal, for people to have fun? Instead of being obsessed with addiction and gear.

30pds for a 15h lame is hardly insane; In fact, I feel that's pretty cheap for arguably the best weapon in the game where that tiny amount of hit can have a huge factor across the board of characters in many many situations. The economy may get stronger yet, you're right but it won't go forever, items will settle down because pds are not infinite and they will settle into their prices. You see a lot of this starting to happen now. Just because free ubers, 30h items etc are not being given away doesn't automatically make the game harder than it is, it's exactly the same as it is now, as it is year-round, so if anything that shouldn't have a huge impact on fluctuations at all.

People coming back for events only instead of enjoying the game any point of the year is not a good goal imo, and from what I gather the goal is to have people find enjoyment any-time year-round whenever they wish to play and if that so happens to be an event there will be extra content to enjoy. That is the consensus I am seeing is at least.
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Something you talk about towards the end there is something I’ve been saying about this server for a long time. I really truly think taking away quests that are “event only” after the event rather than turning off their drops/exp/rewards or whatever has created this environment where people only play during events. Taking away content from the game to use only during certain times is a recipe for players leaving to other places that do have these quests full time. Especially higher level players.
 
Hot take, but imo the problem is hit existing in the first place, it causes too much bullshit within the game because SEGA didn't wanna balance their dumpster fire properly. Only reason I figure Sega kept with it was to keep subscriptions up, because they realized it'd be hard to impossible to find what you wanted in any realistic manner unless you were one of those insanely lucky players. I really don't think it has any place in private servers.

If it were up to me (i know ephinea wont do this dont get butthurt, im just talkin) I'd abolish hit in general, re-adjust the EVA stats in BB to not SUCK for players, fix ATA growth, and make the endgame finding higher damage %'s by taking out or severely limiting sphering to like 1 time. My time playing PSU made me realize why Sega abandoned this sytem, its just incredibly unfair to players. Do you feel unique when you find that high hit item? Sure, but we all know that without hit the items we find are all but completely useless, let alone its actual market value. I've dumped lames, zanbas, and lavis cannons on the floor before just for not having hit. For the purpoted BIG NUMBER shock or iconic value of these items thats kinda f'd up, and i've seen others do this too.
 
i thought the suggestions forum was locked

also as someone who is basically a noob at pso because i hardly ever play (i've never had a character past v.hard) despite having played the game a long stretch of time


i don't appreciate this "save the noobs" angle. let the players who want to get babied filter out when they're not babied
 
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To be fair, I was only suggesting putting something back the way it used to be. I wasn't suggesting like a new mode. I'm not sure that falls under something that SHOULD have been in the suggestion forum. I suppose that's up for debate.

Hey, I did my best here. I said what I think. If the event rewards are meager then I'll continue to make huge profits every time I find a decent item, so I'll be fine personally. I'm gonna bow out at this point because I don't have anything else to add. Others are welcome to continue the discussion.
 
They removed nice hit rares from events?

Last I checked 75h zerk arms/ 75h charge cali/ and 85h hell striker were all in the last event. Is this lacking compared to the past?

30h lame and HS as well

I enjoy these being rare because they probably should be and having the banner announce when they are dropped is also pretty cool.
 
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https://www.pioneer2.net/community/threads/revisit-the-pd-rate-increase-debate.10539/

Ade, you want changes when items become worthless and now you want changes when items start to climb in value? I think new players are doing just fine after this halloween event. Selling a single cookie for 7pds is insane and way better pd income than any of us ever had access to when starting this game. The only gripe for new players would be the fact that srank prices are pretty high.

Sure, we all want an exciting event with nice rewards, but they should be very limited. The fact that there were around 8 (afaik) 75h vjayas opened last christmas is a little much considering that going into that event there were only 1-2 in existence. Same with 50h dls. You could replace all fiasco rare drops with vjayas during the entire xmas event and the server would be lucky to come across more than one that high.

I don't speak for everyone, but finding rare items to me is an exciting part of pso; increased drop rates, and holiday quests with higher mob density... yes please!
 
Ade said:
Zues: I have answered your question. I say the line is right where it used to be: Have some really nice 30% hit weapons for rewards and only make them appear in the rarest variant of the Christmas Presents.

Obviously this didn't cause a massive exodus like Schtserv because it's already BEEN THAT WAY for all of the years (prior to this year) and we're still the most popular server.

Idk...this server has always had minor and major events. Halloween is an example of a minor event. It's something you can miss and you'll be okay. Now it seems like the major events are barely better than the minor events, which means the times that I looked forward to the most- namely seeing old faces come out of the woodwork to play and take advantage of the amazing prizes- are gone.
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I think what ends up happening is the reasoning of "it's in the rarest present so its ok" argument is used a lot when it comes to whether or not prizes will break the economy or not. But no matter whether or not they're in the highest tier of rewards for the event, they're going to be found frequently. That's just how it is.

If it's been this way since the server's inception and they're only now changing it, it must be because the formula isn't working like it's intended. The thing about event items is that the moment you put something that's too high value in there, the event suddenly ruins the economy. Throwing in 75h Vjaya's into the event, rarest form or not, breaks the economy. If even 1 drops, that's it.

Also, server "popularity" really has nothing to do with any of this so not sure why you keep bringing it up. Schthack was the most "popular" server for years and years but that doesn't mean that the system of handing out ubers for event items worked. Evidence has shown that it simply doesn't work. Doesn't really matter how popular your server may be.

I was thinking about this economic stuff after I made my post yesterday and I came to the conclusion that ultimately, Ade, you do this quite often. And by "this" I mean make posts about other people's "problems" or posts about how value either needs to decrease or increase. You made threads years ago about how values need to increase because they were so low, we've all seen them, and now you're making threads that talk about how price needs to decrease because they're "too high". You take 180 turns on topics like this so much that it's really hard to justify anything you tell us sometimes. Often it just feels like you make these threads just to annoy people, because really you're not stating anything factual about the impact the prices have on the server, you're not stating anything factual about the impact not having 30% hit items has on the server as a whole; you're just complaining.

And there's nothing inherently *wrong* with complaining really, it's just the way that you mask your complaints as "legitimate concerns" when really they're not really that. Most of the time it's just you complaining about something you don't like and trying to pose it off as some kind of concern that the server is going in the wrong direction or something. I don't play on Ephinea that much, I play maybe once or twice a week for a few hours, enough to say that I make some steady amount of progress on my profile, but you did this on Schthack too. Every server you touch you seem to feel the need to express yourself about other people's issues.

You stated clearly that you're well off and it doesn't really affect you but that you're mentioning it for the new players. I said this over and over again but speaking for people isn't the right way to go about this. Rather than stating it as "I thought of this issue that could be potentially bad for us" you state it as "I thought of this issue that is affecting new players and I'm telling you about it". See the difference in the way that speaks to people? You're not calmly addressing something you think might become a problem, you're telling us that there IS a problem, and it affects people that you are speaking for on their behalf.

I would argue that items keeping their value over a long period of time rather than steadily decreasing is the sign of a good economy that maintains the value of the things in question. Does the release of a better variant of the item suddenly make the previous any worse? Not necessarily, and if so, should it reduce the price? It depends really. In the case of the Zanba example, a 30 hit Zanba doesn't make a 15 hit Zanba worthless, it just means the 30 hit Zanba is better. Does the 15 hit one lose its inherent value just because there is a better one available? Not really. If that were the case, then the standard would be set every time a better version came out; objectively meaning that if the best Zanba was a 50 hit variant, everything under it would be a few PD's in value and then 50 hit variants would skyrocket in price. Then if a 60 hit variant was found, all the 50 hit variants would become value-less. But the fact that this doesn't happen actually points out specifically to the economy being well designed and the player's being smart about the value of the items they are pricing. It still creates value even among the lower tier items.

Trying to control the economics by personally saying the prices are "too high" is wrong. Because essentially what you're trying to accomplish when you do this is you're attempting to control the market on the assumption that the market is going in a bad direction. But is it really? And if so, how? How is it going in a bad direction? I don't really think trying to convince people that new players being unable to afford things is a bad direction for an economy.

Same thing goes for sranks, and this is a HOT take on sranks.
Sranks aren't like everything else, they actually have a direct pathway to obtaining them unlike everything else. Where I start to get angry is people, like you Ade, that try to control what Sranks should be priced at because they don't believe the effort is worth what they're paying for. But the problem with that is, you're not only trying to control the economics of the item, but you're also controlling the value of the effort, which is something that is also taken into account for Srank values. If only 10 people play Cmode on Ephinea and those 10 people want to decide to sell Sranks at 40 PD's, then they have every right to do that because they're the only ones doing Cmode. And if they decided that they were doing that for the sole purpose of getting more people into doing Cmode, better for you right? Rather than looking at it like its a bad thing, you should actually be thanking them. Because they're essentially giving you an ultimatum. Pay their prices, or do it yourself. Not like Cmode is insane either. I think a lot of people are turned off by it because its a lot to learn, I know I was. But when I finally got around to doing a few full playthroughs myself with some Cmode masters, I actually enjoyed myself. I got 7 of my own Srank weapons by doing this and it didn't cost me a dime.

Trying to control the economy of Srank prices is insanely ignorant anyways. You know that if you spend 8 hours (and that's being generous) doing a Cmode run you'll have an Srank weapon. Time well spent. It's not like its up to RNG to give you the right weapon you were looking for. You put in the work, you get the weapon. If you don't want to pay their price, you have every opportunity to get it. This is to everybody: trying to control Srank prices when you yourself aren't even willing to go out yourself and do the activity to get it for free is insulting to not only yourself but the people that put in the work and effort to get the items you're trying to control the flow and economics of. If you're in a city and only 2 people are carpenters, and you don't wanna pay their prices, do you just try to control what they're allowed to price their product at? No, you become a carpenter and you do it yourself. Sranks are no different than this sentiment. And the excuse "Cmode players wont play with me" is complete bs. Cmode players would play with you if you asked them to play, even if you've never done Cmode ever before because they're just looking for people to play with, they're desperate to get people into the game mode they covet so much. It's a fun game type and severely needs players.

Whew. Anyways, that's it for this optional rant.
 
Zues said:
I think what ends up happening is the reasoning of "it's in the rarest present so its ok" argument is used a lot when it comes to whether or not prizes will break the economy or not. But no matter whether or not they're in the highest tier of rewards for the event, they're going to be found frequently. That's just how it is.

If it's been this way since the server's inception and they're only now changing it, it must be because the formula isn't working like it's intended. The thing about event items is that the moment you put something that's too high value in there, the event suddenly ruins the economy. Throwing in 75h Vjaya's into the event, rarest form or not, breaks the economy. If even 1 drops, that's it.

Also, server "popularity" really has nothing to do with any of this so not sure why you keep bringing it up. Schthack was the most "popular" server for years and years but that doesn't mean that the system of handing out ubers for event items worked. Evidence has shown that it simply doesn't work. Doesn't really matter how popular your server may be.

I was thinking about this economic stuff after I made my post yesterday and I came to the conclusion that ultimately, Ade, you do this quite often. And by "this" I mean make posts about other people's "problems" or posts about how value either needs to decrease or increase. You made threads years ago about how values need to increase because they were so low, we've all seen them, and now you're making threads that talk about how price needs to decrease because they're "too high". You take 180 turns on topics like this so much that it's really hard to justify anything you tell us sometimes. Often it just feels like you make these threads just to annoy people, because really you're not stating anything factual about the impact the prices have on the server, you're not stating anything factual about the impact not having 30% hit items has on the server as a whole; you're just complaining.

And there's nothing inherently *wrong* with complaining really, it's just the way that you mask your complaints as "legitimate concerns" when really they're not really that. Most of the time it's just you complaining about something you don't like and trying to pose it off as some kind of concern that the server is going in the wrong direction or something. I don't play on Ephinea that much, I play maybe once or twice a week for a few hours, enough to say that I make some steady amount of progress on my profile, but you did this on Schthack too. Every server you touch you seem to feel the need to express yourself about other people's issues.

You stated clearly that you're well off and it doesn't really affect you but that you're mentioning it for the new players. I said this over and over again but speaking for people isn't the right way to go about this. Rather than stating it as "I thought of this issue that could be potentially bad for us" you state it as "I thought of this issue that is affecting new players and I'm telling you about it". See the difference in the way that speaks to people? You're not calmly addressing something you think might become a problem, you're telling us that there IS a problem, and it affects people that you are speaking for on their behalf.

I would argue that items keeping their value over a long period of time rather than steadily decreasing is the sign of a good economy that maintains the value of the things in question. Does the release of a better variant of the item suddenly make the previous any worse? Not necessarily, and if so, should it reduce the price? It depends really. In the case of the Zanba example, a 30 hit Zanba doesn't make a 15 hit Zanba worthless, it just means the 30 hit Zanba is better. Does the 15 hit one lose its inherent value just because there is a better one available? Not really. If that were the case, then the standard would be set every time a better version came out; objectively meaning that if the best Zanba was a 50 hit variant, everything under it would be a few PD's in value and then 50 hit variants would skyrocket in price. Then if a 60 hit variant was found, all the 50 hit variants would become value-less. But the fact that this doesn't happen actually points out specifically to the economy being well designed and the player's being smart about the value of the items they are pricing. It still creates value even among the lower tier items.

Trying to control the economics by personally saying the prices are "too high" is wrong. Because essentially what you're trying to accomplish when you do this is you're attempting to control the market on the assumption that the market is going in a bad direction. But is it really? And if so, how? How is it going in a bad direction? I don't really think trying to convince people that new players being unable to afford things is a bad direction for an economy.

Same thing goes for sranks, and this is a HOT take on sranks.
Sranks aren't like everything else, they actually have a direct pathway to obtaining them unlike everything else. Where I start to get angry is people, like you Ade, that try to control what Sranks should be priced at because they don't believe the effort is worth what they're paying for. But the problem with that is, you're not only trying to control the economics of the item, but you're also controlling the value of the effort, which is something that is also taken into account for Srank values. If only 10 people play Cmode on Ephinea and those 10 people want to decide to sell Sranks at 40 PD's, then they have every right to do that because they're the only ones doing Cmode. And if they decided that they were doing that for the sole purpose of getting more people into doing Cmode, better for you right? Rather than looking at it like its a bad thing, you should actually be thanking them. Because they're essentially giving you an ultimatum. Pay their prices, or do it yourself. Not like Cmode is insane either. I think a lot of people are turned off by it because its a lot to learn, I know I was. But when I finally got around to doing a few full playthroughs myself with some Cmode masters, I actually enjoyed myself. I got 7 of my own Srank weapons by doing this and it didn't cost me a dime.

Trying to control the economy of Srank prices is insanely ignorant anyways. You know that if you spend 8 hours (and that's being generous) doing a Cmode run you'll have an Srank weapon. Time well spent. It's not like its up to RNG to give you the right weapon you were looking for. You put in the work, you get the weapon. If you don't want to pay their price, you have every opportunity to get it. This is to everybody: trying to control Srank prices when you yourself aren't even willing to go out yourself and do the activity to get it for free is insulting to not only yourself but the people that put in the work and effort to get the items you're trying to control the flow and economics of. If you're in a city and only 2 people are carpenters, and you don't wanna pay their prices, do you just try to control what they're allowed to price their product at? No, you become a carpenter and you do it yourself. Sranks are no different than this sentiment. And the excuse "Cmode players wont play with me" is complete bs. Cmode players would play with you if you asked them to play, even if you've never done Cmode ever before because they're just looking for people to play with, they're desperate to get people into the game mode they covet so much. It's a fun game type and severely needs players.

Whew. Anyways, that's it for this optional rant.
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Excessive inflation and deflation are both bad things. Addressing them as they come up is not "changing my stance." Once again, you're being disingenuous, as you know it's possible for economic conditions to swing too far in either direction.

I haven't argued about the prices of Sranks for years. Dumb point. Although if all Cmode players decide to have a cartel, that IS their right. It's also my right to speak with and attempt to convince one of them to undercut the others and dismantle the cartel. That's business. I think Cmode is boring and I have no desire to play it. There's nothing wrong with me POINTING OUT THE FACT that one of these Cmode "brothers" could undercut his peeps and make even more money than them. This is a realization he could come to on his own. This is why cartels never work. They run contrary to the market economy, and it only takes one person "breaking the oath" to crumble it.

Back in 2016 when I expressed concerns about this (boy you're really clutching at straws here), another group of players started selling them more cheaply, and I got all my Sranks for super cheap without having to play dumb, boring Cmode. They saw an OPPORTUNITY in that a douchey cartel was fixing prices and gave way better deals. (My opinion about Cmode being boring is my opinion and I really don't care to argue about that.)

The disadvantage I carry is that I always keep the same name from server to server, and I'm known for speaking my mind. Lots of my detractors, who also have less than stellar community track records, tend to change names or reinvent themselves from one iteration of this game to the next. I am proud of who I am, warts and all. If some no-name hater comes out of the woodwork to put me in my place, I call that Tuesday.

I'm not trying to control the market. You're just assuming the worst about me at every turn. This is really as simple as me thinking, "If the prizes for the event suck, the event itself is going to suck." There's nothing fancy or hidden going on here. I'm saying what's on my mind. There's other people who seem to think it's okay if the prizes suck because they play for some other reason, but I play loot based RPGs for loot. It was nice to have events that rewarded you with special bonuses for putting in the time, not Crazy Tunes and Harrisen Battle Fans. The negative economic impacts are bad too, but I think making events less special makes the game less fun.

One good point I didn't consider is the Cookies and other things that well established players are willing to pay absurd amounts for to help noobs get more PDs and gear up. I like that. I'm also willing to admit I hadn't considered it. (Which is completely the opposite of how you are.) Despite your self-righteous and insufferable attitude, I actually learned something new from this, and I'm glad I know more than I did. That's the point of discussion. Not to "win."

You should approach discussions with the attitude that the other person might know something you don't. I've asked you many times to stop acting like a rhetorician or a sophist, so I'm done dealing with you. You just want to grandstand and put me in my place, so have at it. If I say you win, will you go away?

(I said I wasn't going to post in this thread again, but Zues felt it necessary to be an opportunist about that, so I felt it necessary to address it.)
 
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Nikki said:
If it were up to me (i know ephinea wont do this dont get butthurt, im just talkin) I'd abolish hit in general, re-adjust the EVA stats in BB to not SUCK for players, fix ATA growth, and make the endgame finding higher damage %'s by taking out or severely limiting sphering to like 1 time.
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I feel compelled to point out that this is basically the Dreamcast PSO meta. People love to shit on DC for having less content and terrible drop rates (which I long ago fixed, so that point is kind of moot now), but the original PSO incarnation does hold some lessons regarding what Sega did wrong when they rebalanced everything for GameCube. Each PSO version has critical flaws, but each version also has strengths.
 
Aleron Ives said:
I feel compelled to point out that this is basically the Dreamcast PSO meta.
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Was this really the Dreamcast PSO meta? I happen to have a different memory about that time, though it may be faulty.

I remember the monsters in v2's Ultimate mode, at least in the Mines and most definitely the Ruins, being incredibly difficult to hit unless you managed to find a decent Imperial Pick. (Which was one of the more common rares at the time.)

Normal Red weapon drops with average percents and other commons would usually miss and cause you to get hit for a ton of damage, so you still needed items with decent Hit % on top of good damage %...

I think I only got my Humar up to level 130 or so, because the experience grind was a lot worse than now, but I remember struggling a lot more in Dreamcast than on BB.
 
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