Does anyone play this keyboard only?

astallasalion said:
You should look into how analog signals work before stating that there is "no factual evidence"
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But since you can, quite literally, do everything exactly how an analog stick can do on a Keyboard, there's not much 'factual" evidence supporting that Controllers are better.

Again, I guess I'll reiterate, this thread is very much subjective. You're confusing objectivity with subjectivity because everything here is based on a personal preference because neither is actually better than the other.

edit: Let me put it this way: If a Keyboard and a controller control the same way, if they can do the exact same things, if they control your character the same way, and it's 100% up to the individual to decide which they're better with, then neither of these things can be objectively better than the other.

You can show proof as to what analog sticks do, and the smoothness of an analog stick for players, or how they control movements, sure. That evidence is there. But it's not evidence supporting any kind of stance regarding this topic. Both of these things control the same, they both work the same, they both do the same thing. For one thing to be objectively better than the other, it has to have some specific thing within the confines of the game that makes it better, which neither of those things have. Therefore, when it's strictly up to the player's individual skill level with those things, it's a completely subjective matter.
 
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Zues said:
But since you can, quite literally, do everything exactly how an analog stick can do on a Keyboard, there's not much 'factual" evidence supporting that Controllers are better.

Again, I guess I'll reiterate, this thread is very much subjective. You're confusing objectivity with subjectivity because everything here is based on a personal preference because neither is actually better than the other.
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It seems you're the one conflating the two. I think people have objectively listed things that analog sticks can do better.

They literally allow for more precise aiming because of how an analog stick works electronically. Refer to my edit in my previous post.
 
Zues said:
edit: Let me put it this way: If a Keyboard and a controller control the same way, if they can do the exact same things, if they control your character the same way, and it's 100% up to the individual to decide which they're better with, then neither of these things can be objectively better than the other.
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360 degree analog control vs. 8-direction with keys. There's no reason to be contentious over this.
 
Didn't realize people would get so upset and defensive over their keyboard usage. No one minds if you do so, and it's fine if you're more comfortable with it. But it really is straight up denial to not acknowledge that a controller (set up properly with a mapping program) gives you far more advantages than keyboard in general.

Are people really that afraid to admit that they are choosing to play less optimally? Just own it and keep your head held high.
 
Zues said:
If a Keyboard and a controller control the same way, if they can do the exact same things, if they control your character the same way
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Unfortunately they simply cannot function the same way in PSOBB. Even outside of the angle stuff people mentioned above, there are mechanics in the game that keyboard is incapable of.

Snap Aiming is the most obvious example; where you can quickly aim in a direction (I'm pretty sure its a 1 frame pivot by definition.)

Here's an example of snap aiming

Another scenario I can think of is when you're hugging an enemy, you cannot quickly pivot to face it. You will be forced to turn very slowly instead. This isn't the same as the snap aiming issue, as your turn speed is simply slower than it usually is. It's something that has messed me up countless times and can be quite frustrating.

I've only used keyboard since I started on ephinea. It's certainly a limitation, but I work around it with good positioning and planning to make up for that weakness.
 
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StevieWonderDownUnder said:
First, the basic Xbox 360, etc. controller has like half of their buttons not being used by PSOBB. So, it is certainly untrue that some sort of special controller is needed.
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Are you accounting for the basic controls + hotkey bar? I have a Logicool controller and it certainly doesn't have enough for all of those. That would be something like 18 buttons + directional pads. This one has 13 (counting the clicking in of the analog sticks)
 
diemildefreude said:
Are you accounting for the basic controls + hotkey bar? I have a Logicool controller and it certainly doesn't have enough for all of those. That would be something like 18 buttons + directional pads. This one has 13 (counting the clicking in of the analog sticks)
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360 controller has the following unused for PSO

DPad Up/Down/Left/Right
Right Analog Up/Down/Left/Right
Left Trigger
Right Trigger
Left Bumper
Right Bumper
Select Button
Left joystick toggle
Right joystick toggle

Might be Missing one, but that is 15 buttons for hotkeys outside of core movement and you only need 10 for hotkeys.

Maybe left bumper is used, I at least use it for quick menu and can't remember if it's binded or works that way naturally. (Not in front of a computer, tiny ass phone)

Regardless, 14 keys would be plenty for hotkeys.
 
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astallasalion said:
It seems you're the one conflating the two. I think people have objectively listed things that analog sticks can do better.

They literally allow for more precise aiming because of how an analog stick works electronically. Refer to my edit in my previous post.
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No Hit said:
Unfortunately they simply cannot function the same way in PSOBB. Even outside of the angle stuff people mentioned above, there are mechanics in the game that keyboard is incapable of.

Snap Aiming is the most obvious example; where you can quickly aim in a direction (I'm pretty sure its a 1 frame pivot by definition.)

Here's an example of snap aiming

Another scenario I can think of is when you're hugging an enemy, you cannot quickly pivot to face it. You will be forced to turn very slowly instead. This isn't the same as the snap aiming issue, as your turn speed is simply slower than it usually is. It's something that has messed me up countless times and can be quite frustrating.

I've only used keyboard since I started on ephinea. It's certainly a limitation, but I work around it with good positioning and planning to make up for that weakness.
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I will say again, WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE GAME.

Pivot aiming with controller is also possible on keyboard. Not that it even matters, because it's not necessary to play the game in the slightest bit.
People linking all these different examples of why analog stick is better because it controls in all these super precise ways that a keyboard cant and how the analog stick can perform movements that a keyboard cant do doesn't even matter. None of that even matters at all. We're talking about how analog stick and keyboard differentiate from each other within PSO. Not in general. Within PSO. PSO doesn't require you to move with all these precise inputs with all these different rotations and what not. The most PSO requires of you is to be able to move left, right, forward, and back. So all of these extra things that analog can do, have literally zero use within the game because the game isn't reliant on these things to function. The game doesn't care that you can move 1/10th of a degree to the northwest direction because as long as you move straight, you're fine. The game doesn't care if you can pivot aim precisely dead on with an analog stick because if you aim within the direction of the enemy the game will automatically change your bullet trajectory to the enemy hitbox on it's own without your inputs.

If all these insanely precise changes that analog stick can do over keyboard are not necessary because the game isn't advanced enough to use those kinds of inputs to its advantage, then those things are worthless and don't matter. If the features aren't useful within the confines of the game. If the game can't make use of turning exactly 139 degrees to the left to get a good turn, if the game doesn't care if you can pivot aim your gun because the game auto tracks bullets to hitboxes regardless, if the game doesn't care about any of those things, but only cares about the basics, then those features you mention are irrelevant and don't matter.

Contrary to popular belief, this game isn't super technical. This game isn't super complicated and requires all these advanced inputs to succeed. This isn't Melee, where being able to L-cancel your moves properly or having good Directional Influence makes or breaks your ability to play the game at a reasonable level. Being able to pivot yourself in place to aim at a belra doesn't make or break your experience. Being able to turn at a specific angle with better button detection doesn't make or break your PSO experience. If the basis of "analog is better because it lets you do X" but X is entirely unnecessary and is 100% not required to play the game in any way and more or less has zero impact on your game experience, you can't use it as an example of why it's better because it by default has zero impact on a game's experience. If it has zero impact, how can it be so much better. Bringing up stuff about analog stick being able to do all these crazy complex and precise things on other games has no relevancy to what it can do in PSO, which is the game we're discussing.
 
@Zues

Lol. I like how you started this debate with the notion that keyboard and controller afford you the EXACT same movement and aiming options as the controller does. Then, you change the goal post to debate whether or not these things impact gameplay largely. (They do in high level play.)

Also, you make this unsubstantiated claim about the fact that keyboard can do these things. (A video would be ample proof.) And then say, that even if they can't, it doesn't matter.

Edit:
[Most of what you typed isn't even true, especially the bolded part. I don't know why you chose to use 139 degrees as an example? How about 30, or 60 degrees? PSO isn't limited to targeting in 45 degree increments like the digital keyboard inputs are, there really is a much larger spectrum of aiming with a controller that you are pretending, or don't know, exists in PSOBB.]

This seems like a really big detour to just admitting you are wrong and moving on. Humility can be liberating.:rolleyes:
 
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StevieWonderDownUnder said:
@Zues

Lol. I like how you started this debate with the notion that keyboard and controller afford you the EXACT same movement and aiming options as the controller does. Then, you change the goal post to debate whether or not these things impact gameplay largely. (They do in high level play.)

Also, you make this unsubstantiated claim about the fact that keyboard can do these things. (A video would be ample proof.) And then say, that even if they can't, it doesn't matter.

Edit:
[Most of what you typed isn't even true, especially the bolded part. I don't know why you chose to use 139 degrees as an example? How about 30, or 60 degrees? PSO isn't limited to targeting in 45 degree increments like the digital keyboard inputs are, there really is a much larger spectrum of aiming with a controller that you are pretending, or don't know, exists in PSOBB.]

This seems like a really big detour to just admitting you are wrong and moving on. Humility can be liberating.:rolleyes:
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I know half of what you said is a troll post so I'll only respond to a partly serious thing you said about me changing my argument. I never ever changed my argument. This topic is about "which is better" and I never strayed away from that. If anything, you guys started to stop arguing as much about which was better and started to really argue more about "which has more features", or "which is capable of doing more things than the other" which isn't important. You can go back and look if you want, the proof is in the pudding. The arguments of those on the side of controller quite literally stopped arguing about which was better (because it was a lost argument) and started to argue more about which has more features or which one can do more things across a variety of platforms. That was never the argument. At least I've stuck to my guns on my arguments. You guys just stopped talking about the original topic altogether halfway through and shifted to talking about something you couldn't possibly be wrong about (more features or more capabilities), which obviously controller benefits more from but we were never arguing about it. You guys just shifted your arguments away from "which is better" to "which has more features". Not the same thing.
 
@Zues

First, referring to a legitimate criticism of your argument as a "troll post" is pretty easy way to look more wrong.

I'm just confused, because all of the people who have read this thread can, in fact, read. So, I'm not really sure why you are blatantly lying about what you said in your last post. (You can literally scroll up and read it.) You very clearly denied that these "extra features" are exclusive to controller (i.e. snap targeting is possible on keyboard), and then said "Even if they are, it doesn't matter."

I never changed my point that controller is OBJECTIVELY better in PSOBB. It literally allows more options, that make a huge difference if you know what you are doing. It's like saying menuing techs isn't objectively better than slamming a hotkey with your finger. Sure, you can play the entire game fine hammering on your hot keys, but it is objectively worse than menuing. By your logic, these two things are exactly equivalent because menuing techs isn't required to play.

Anyway, I won't bother responding again because this argument is truly "anguish mode." I just hope you learn what the words "objective" and "better" mean before you are arguing about something more consequential than PSOBB.
 
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Zues said:
Contrary to popular belief, this game isn't super technical. This game isn't super complicated and requires all these advanced inputs to succeed. This isn't Melee, where being able to L-cancel your moves properly or having good Directional Influence makes or breaks your ability to play the game at a reasonable level. Being able to pivot yourself in place to aim at a belra doesn't make or break your experience. Being able to turn at a specific angle with better button detection doesn't make or break your PSO experience. If the basis of "analog is better because it lets you do X" but X is entirely unnecessary and is 100% not required to play the game in any way and more or less has zero impact on your game experience, you can't use it as an example of why it's better because it by default has zero impact on a game's experience. If it has zero impact, how can it be so much better. Bringing up stuff about analog stick being able to do all these crazy complex and precise things on other games has no relevancy to what it can do in PSO, which is the game we're discussing.
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You are using the very definition of a subjective argument to support what you claim is an objective fact. An analog stick objectively allows players for degrees of control than a keyboard. This is objectively better.

Subjectively, you think the added fine motor control in a game like PSO is un-necessary. That's fine and dandy, but that's just like your opinion, man. Completely subjective and couldn't be farther away from an objective argument.

The control option that enables the better level of control is objectively the better option. Personal preference could make the objectively worse option the better option for you, but that is subjective.

Hypothetical:

You live in a world where you have to drive on a straight road and never have to turn. For your needs a car that can't turn is perfectly fine and the ability to turn has zero impact on your life. If someone else had a car that could turn would you say that your car that can't turn is objectively better than a car that can?
 
I used to be a Keyboard Warrior, but I recently started playing this game during my leisure time in short bursts with a 360 controller.

I have to say, the analog movement is nice, and so is access to the extra slots brought upon by the palette manager, but it sure does suck having to redo years of muscle memory. With that in mind, I started a fresh new FOmar to ease myself into the relearning process; if I'm going to play like a noob, I might as well be one too, right?

But it sounds like it'll be worth it. By the end of this, maybe I'll be able to play my main (FOml) better, or maybe I'll be able to actually aim a ranged weapon (RM)!
 
Aleron Ives said:
Eh? You need Dpad Up/Down to manipulate menus and L/R buttons for camera centering and shifting the Action Palette.
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D Pad will manipulate menus when you actually open a menu, but simply use the mapped key when used during normal play. Same with L/R.

I map camera to L3/left joystick but I suppose you're right there with needing camera move mapped

Regardless, buttons can function differently yet seamlessly as well. Also, still plenty of controller real estate for l your needs.

Navigate menus one second, cast rabarta the next.

Bam.
 
I play keyboard only. I am super new so I don't know much else on what I can use. At first it felt wonky but now it is becoming natural. I'll be playing PSO2 on PC so I want to get as familiar as possible with mouse and keyboard.
 
Let's keep the whole "players suck", "people are doing things wrong", and related discussion off of the forum, please. It's one thing to discuss the merits of controller vs. keyboard, but another to say a player sucks because they play on a keyboard. Any further posts like this in the thread will be removed. Thanks.
 
I mapped my action keys to 456 on the numpad and the face direction set to the right arrow. This way my thumb and three fingers are all on a useful button. I snap aim pretty easily as a hunter or ranger like that.
 
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